Barred from Grocery Stores by Facial Recognition • Hacker News Board

Re: Barred from Grocery Stores by Facial Recognition

#41

Post by derekp7 » Fri, Jun 30, 2023, 6:49 PM UTC

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #11

AdamJacobMuller wrote: post #9

This is conflicting, on one hand it's certainty within the right of a store to bar people who shoplift, it's really an imperative to do so. The petty crime issue the retailers here are trying to counter is a real one. But this application it feels like falling down an increasingly slippery slope. Sure, today, it's just "send an alert and the store can do what it wants" but how long until that transforms into a de fac…

I think that stores would be far more willing to remove facial recognition if there was a guarantee, a social contract, that shoplifter = police on the scene immediately = arrest = minimum 30 days imprisonment regardless of object size, without bail, sentence time increases by 30 days for each repeat offense within the last three years. Problem solved; we can focus on community programs to reduce the desire to shopli…

At the Walmart self checkout, scanning items and putting them in the bags. I noticed that one item scanned, got the normal beep that it scanned correctly, put it in the bag,the bagging area weight check passed, but there was a message in small text where the item description appears, that said "System busy". Next item scanned ok, etc but the previous item didn't appear on the item list. I had to take it out of the bag to scan a second time. If I hadn't noticed "System busy" and the item missing from the list, it wouldn't have appeared on my receipt, and I could have been charged with shoplifting.

Walmart has specifically complained about people shoplifting at the self checkout, but I notice this "scan correctly" followed by "System Busy" message quite frequently.

Oh, and I did an item lookup for produce that had to be weighed, found and selected the item, put it on the scale and it came up as 3 cents. Apparently I was supposed to put it on the scale first, then click the picture. I HAVE NEVER RECEIVED TRAINING AS A CASHIER. I would hate to be put on a "shoplifter" ban list due to bad UI on their software.

Re: Barred from Grocery Stores by Facial Recognition

#42

Post by kbelder » Fri, Jun 30, 2023, 6:49 PM UTC

qbasic_forever wrote: post #17

aurizon wrote: post #8

If a shop catches a thief with a box he took outside the store after they chase him down, they offer him a choice, we will either prosecute you and get you jailed/fined - or you can promise never to come here again and to be sure, we will take your photo and use our scanner to detect you, and will tell all the local shops as well. Offered that choice, few would take the police route - this may be their tenth arrest =…

No one is chasing shoplifters, at least in America. Store employees have been shot and killed attempting to reclaim stolen goods. Or even worse, employees have tackled and injured shoplifters who have then turned around and successfully sued the stores for huge personal injury claims. It is store policy everywhere that employees are not allowed to pursue suspected shoplifters and folks have been fired for doing exact…

It's not quite that absolute, but you're right that's the most common policy.

But it depends on location and company. Last year I saw a shoplifter get walked/dragged to the back office by two guys, each holding an arm.

It was pretty elegantly done. As the shoplifter walked out of the store, a guy stepped up on each side, each slid a hand right under the arm, nestled in the armpit, and stood very close, with all three side-by-side. They then smoothly walked him around a 180 degree turn and took him into the store while one employee was saying "We need you to come with us...". The poor guy was in the store before he knew what was going on. They had obviously done this before.

Re: Barred from Grocery Stores by Facial Recognition

#43

Post by qbasic_forever » Fri, Jun 30, 2023, 6:50 PM UTC

flutas wrote: post #38

qbasic_forever wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is shoplifting actually increasing? Data trumps anecdotes. Combatting it is easy, you need to pay someone to stand at the door and check receipts. But stores don't want to spend money on labor and instead just want to whine and claim there is nothing that can be done, we need to hire more police, etc. to make it someone else's problem.

> Combatting it is easy, you need to pay someone to stand at the door and check receipts. Which won't help because they can't actually do anything, they have no right to actually see your receipt. They can't require it, they can't use it as probable cause, and they can't detain you. Worst they can do is ban you from the premises. Store's like Costco and Sam's Club can require it because it's part of your membership a…

Yes but it's still a deterrent for the vast majority of casual shoplifters. And if shoplifting is really such a horrible cost for these stores, why don't they go private and require shoppers to agree to a membership to shop inside (which includes an agreement to have your receipt checked)? There is no law that says stores have to be open to the general public.

Re: Barred from Grocery Stores by Facial Recognition

#44

Post by wittenbunk » Fri, Jun 30, 2023, 6:51 PM UTC

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #23

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

We haven't, and I think it is fairly safe to say that rehabilitation and counciling programs to stop shoplifting would be far more expensive and ineffective than imprisonment; so we shouldn't hold out for a perfect solution over an imperfect one. Also, people don't shoplift just once for fun. A "relatively small loss" is quite large by the tenth time it happens because nobody got punished. EDIT: For "posting too fast…

The cost of prison is massive compared to counseling. Please stop presenting uninformed opinion as generally accepted fact.

Re: Barred from Grocery Stores by Facial Recognition

#45

Post by armchairhacker » Fri, Jun 30, 2023, 6:51 PM UTC

AdamJacobMuller wrote: post #9

This is conflicting, on one hand it's certainty within the right of a store to bar people who shoplift, it's really an imperative to do so. The petty crime issue the retailers here are trying to counter is a real one. But this application it feels like falling down an increasingly slippery slope. Sure, today, it's just "send an alert and the store can do what it wants" but how long until that transforms into a de fac…

Some ways to make the system better:

- Allow the accused to repay the sale price of whatever they're accused of shoplifting (or possibly even a discount) to remove the charge. There's no harm done, and nobody's banned from every store because nobody's truly banned from any store

- If someone can't afford repayment, provide work or community service as an alternative. I know this is unfair to poor people effectively forcing them to work, but the alternative is JAIL or just letting people steal; and also, people shouldn't be stealing in the first place. Still, EBT, SNAP and other bare minimums should absolutely never be gated (and doing so will lead to violence), and the work/service needs to be capped at something reasonable otherwise people just won't do it

- Absolutely provide a way to appeal false positives. People should have an opportunity to present their own evidence, have a human review the camera footage, and check dates / times (because if you can prove you were somewhere else that will rule it out quickly). Most of all, the appellate court should be part of the government, not the company; it may still be biased towards companies but less so.

- If someone loses their appeal, maybe allow them to make the evidence or entire case public (with others' info redacted), so they can post it to social media? That will help people convicted on iffy evidence, because evidence banning someone from every store needs to be solid; and making the info public will mitigate truly guilty people posting misleading information

I do think there's no good solution. I also think this isn't something we can just ignore, and we can't just ban every method stores use to prevent shoplifting, because otherwise they'll just close or start taking drastic actions. I think that whatever the solution is, it should be biased towards the consumer; but try and reduce this bias as much as possible, because too much bias and the stores just close or take drastic actions.

Re: Barred from Grocery Stores by Facial Recognition

#46

Post by brookst » Fri, Jun 30, 2023, 6:53 PM UTC

pessimizer wrote: post #40

AdamJacobMuller wrote: post #9

This is conflicting, on one hand it's certainty within the right of a store to bar people who shoplift, it's really an imperative to do so. The petty crime issue the retailers here are trying to counter is a real one. But this application it feels like falling down an increasingly slippery slope. Sure, today, it's just "send an alert and the store can do what it wants" but how long until that transforms into a de fac…

> But this application it feels like falling down an increasingly slippery slope. The slippery slope could go farther than a ban from the premise for retail theft. People are being barred from banking in England based on political speech. Don't grocery stores have the right to choose who they do business with? What if they don't want transphobes, Brexiteers, or people of Russian descent shopping there?

The US had the concept of protected classes. As a business, I can refuse to serve fans of the wrong sports team or anyone wearing a blue shirt. I cannot refuse to serve people based on membership in a protected class (race, sexual orientation, etc).

I think that works ok. There is a strong profit motive to serve as many people as possible, and there are consequences for getting reputation as “who knows if they’ll serve you”

So, which I would find it distasteful if a store refused to serve Brexiters, I believe the market would sort that out. I’d only be interested in regulation if the problem actually appears.

Re: Barred from Grocery Stores by Facial Recognition

#47

Post by brookst » Fri, Jun 30, 2023, 6:55 PM UTC

geodel wrote: post #39

LordDragonfang wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>He had just chased after three shoplifters who had taken off with several packages of laundry soap. >Mr. Mackenzie adds one or two new faces every week, he said, mainly people who steal diapers, groceries, pet supplies and other low-cost goods. I feel like this especially highlights how dystopian this is. This isn't a tool being used to prevent organized theft rings[1], this is ratting out people who can't afford di…

> it's to fix the problems leading to the desperation. That is beyond the scope of store owners. They are not the one collecting taxes and deciding on resource allocation in society.

Agreed. “Instead of this local solution fully within a person’s control, ‘we’ should solve a giant macroeconomic and cultural issue” is never that persuasive.

Re: Barred from Grocery Stores by Facial Recognition

#48

Post by AbrahamParangi » Fri, Jun 30, 2023, 6:56 PM UTC

Something that I think many people really underestimate is how much crime is done by how few people. It’s incredibly concentrated. We may have this image of a normal person perhaps down on their luck and tempted by circumstances and while this is true of most criminals, it is not true of the perpetrators of most crimes.

For example, according to this article in the NYT (https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/15/nyregion/shoplifting-arre...) the top 327 shoplifters in NYC last year were arrested more than 6000 times.

The same is true of violent crimes. Most people who commit a violent crime are not actually that likely to do it again. Those who do are extremely likely to do it a third time.

Arguably, enforcement should be substantially more lenient for most people and substantially more aggressive for very few.

Re: Barred from Grocery Stores by Facial Recognition

#49

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jun 30, 2023, 6:57 PM UTC

AdamJacobMuller wrote: post #9

This is conflicting, on one hand it's certainty within the right of a store to bar people who shoplift, it's really an imperative to do so. The petty crime issue the retailers here are trying to counter is a real one. But this application it feels like falling down an increasingly slippery slope. Sure, today, it's just "send an alert and the store can do what it wants" but how long until that transforms into a de fac…

[deleted]

Re: Barred from Grocery Stores by Facial Recognition

#50

Post by Simulacra » Fri, Jun 30, 2023, 6:57 PM UTC

This is needed, urgently, but I worry about its long term implications. From the article, I think this sums up the general opinion: "economic hardship made him sympathetic, but that the number of thefts had gotten so out of hand that facial recognition was needed."

When politicians refuse to act, or worse reduce safety and penalties, communities lose out and stores close.