Live data from Hacker News

From word models to world models

arxiv.org

41–50 of 119 posts

Re: From word models to world models

#41

It's a surprise to see a paper actually try to solve the problem of modelling thought via language. Nevertheless, it begins with far too many hedges: > By scaling to even larger datasets and neural networks, LLMs appeared to learn not only the structure of language, but capacities for some kinds of thinking There's two hypotheses for how LLMs generate apparently "thought-expressing" outputs: Hyp1 -- it's sampling fro…

> There's two hypotheses for how LLMs generate apparently "thought-expressing" outputs: Hyp1 -- it's sampling from similar text which is distributed so-as-to-express a thought by some agent; Hyp2 -- it has the capacity to form that thought.

There's also another hypothesis: Hyp3 -- that Hyp1 and Hyp2 converge as the LLM is scaled up (more training data, more dimensions in the latent space), and in the limit become equivalent.

Re: From word models to world models

#42

It's a surprise to see a paper actually try to solve the problem of modelling thought via language. Nevertheless, it begins with far too many hedges: > By scaling to even larger datasets and neural networks, LLMs appeared to learn not only the structure of language, but capacities for some kinds of thinking There's two hypotheses for how LLMs generate apparently "thought-expressing" outputs: Hyp1 -- it's sampling fro…

> There's two hypotheses for how LLMs generate apparently "thought-expressing" outputs: Hyp1 -- it's sampling from similar text which is distributed so-as-to-express a thought by some agent; Hyp2 -- it has the capacity to form that thought. There's also another hypothesis: Hyp3 -- that Hyp1 and Hyp2 converge as the LLM is scaled up (more training data, more dimensions in the latent space), and in the limit become equ…

They're indistinguishable via naive measurement (prompting) if the LLM can sample from all possible data: there's a very large infinity of (Q, A, time) triples (ie., it's real-valued).

But it cannot, since most of those are in the future.

Re: From word models to world models

#43
post #2

After a quick/superficial read, my understanding is that the authors: (a) induce an LLM to take natural language inputs and generate statements in a probabilistic programming language that formally models concepts, objects, actions, etc. in a symbolic world model, drawing from a large body of research on symbolic AI that goes back to pre-deep-learning days; and (b) perform inference using the generated formal stateme…

I have not yet read the paper, but based on this description it seems like it provides grounding in the context of the training data , which is kind of the rub with current LLMs to begin with, right? We don't have a set of high quality training data that is completely unbiased and factual.

> … which is kind of the rub with current LLMs to begin with, right?

No, the bigger problem with current LLMs is that even with high quality factual training data, they often generate seemingly plausible nonsense (e.g. cite nonexistent websites/papers as their sources.)

This is by design imo; they’re trained to generate ‘likely’ text, and they do that extremely well. There’s no guarantee for faithful retrieval from a corpus.

Re: From word models to world models

#44
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you havent formulated any hypotheses that can be tested. You've just looked at the graph and "reckoned something" Let's not be so hasty. I think I do put it as clearly as possible. I'm comparing essentially your Hyp1 and Hyp2, where Hyp1 (aka the stochastic parrot ) is expressed a little bit more clearly as the LLM is learning an n -gram that produces correct sorts through rote memorization of statistical correlati…

There are an infinite number of sentences which describe what "being red" is, most of them have never been written. Redness is not in the structure of those sentences. And there will always be an infinity of sentences which are True but cannot be infered by an LLM -- but can be so, trivially, by a person acquainted with redness. In any case, I'd need more time than I have at the moment to seriously state Hyp1 for you…

> There are an infinite number of sentences which describe what "being red" is, most of them have never been written.

Which is exactly how the set of sentences actually written encodes in it the idea of "Redness". It's the "actually written" part that carries information about the real world.

> And there will always be an infinity of sentences which are True but cannot be infered by an LLM -- but can be so, trivially, by a person acquainted with redness.

That's cheating, because "a person acquainted with redness" presumably learned it by sight, which LLMs can't do just yet (at least the widely accessible ones can't). Would you also say that a person born blind also cannot infer those True sentences about redness? Because if they can, that means the concept of redness is capable of being taught through language, and so there's no reason LLMs couldn't pick up on it too.

Re: From word models to world models

#45
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you havent formulated any hypotheses that can be tested. You've just looked at the graph and "reckoned something" Let's not be so hasty. I think I do put it as clearly as possible. I'm comparing essentially your Hyp1 and Hyp2, where Hyp1 (aka the stochastic parrot ) is expressed a little bit more clearly as the LLM is learning an n -gram that produces correct sorts through rote memorization of statistical correlati…

There are an infinite number of sentences which describe what "being red" is, most of them have never been written. Redness is not in the structure of those sentences. And there will always be an infinity of sentences which are True but cannot be infered by an LLM -- but can be so, trivially, by a person acquainted with redness. In any case, I'd need more time than I have at the moment to seriously state Hyp1 for you…

> Redness is not in the structure of those sentences.

Sure; it's in the spectrum of reflected light. (Or perhaps, the retina's trichromal responsivity). But that physical concept can be meaningfully described by sentences. It doesn't require an infinite number of them to create a coherent world-model, which can do things like predicting that a blue object will become red if it moves away from you at a high enough speed. Which is something a human might be surprised by even after many years of visual experience with red objects -- unless they've read sentences about the Doppler effect in a physics textbook.

If you can manage to trick GPT-4 into revealing that it doesn't have a world-model of the concept of 'red', please show us!

> At a quick glance of your article it feels like you havent formulated Hyp1 correctly -- P(CorrectSort | f(HistoricalCases)) is perhaps arbitrarily high if some statistical f() can be chosen well.

Keep in mind, the LLM's structure was not hand-crafted to do well on this mathematical task. It was built to be good at language modelling, and initialized with essentially a uniform prior over all token sequences. Even if a dataset is efficiently compressible, that's no guarantee that the LLM will be able to compress it efficiently. In fact, many people would probably be surprised to learn that it can do this problem at all, let alone so well with so little training. But do think about the statistics of sorting a bit more. I think it's not as easily compressible as you think it is, except by an actual sorting algorithm. Again, you can compress it a bit with monotonicity and so on, but nowhere near the amount you'd need to sort a long list without errors, using so few parameters. I compute the number of sorted and unsorted lists in the footnotes.

One of the things that makes sorting tricky for an LLM is you always need to look at every item in the input list. Even if the previous output token was '99', you can't be sure you're now at the end of the list; you still need to count how many '99's were output already and how many are needed.

(The dataset itself, of course, does not contain the notion of sorting, a description of sorting, a test for sortedness, or any algorithm for sorting. It only contains a large but finite number of examples of sorted and unsorted lists. It's up to the LLM, and its training process, to discover the mechanism that generated these results.)

Re: From word models to world models

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

they can answer those https://medium.com/@nathanbos/prompting-better-theory-of-min...

Yes, by changing the words The whole point is that irrelevant word permutation should not "turn on" or "turn off" this capacity. That you can "prompt engineer" your way to the answer shows that the prompt engineer knows the answer and can "use the right search terms" to find it.

"But the bag is transparent" is not "irrelevant word permutation" and neither is the additive question that spurs the correct resolution. And it certainly isn't random.

a human that isn't paying attention could fail the question too which is kind of the point i'm making.

There's no way a model that can't model protein structures does this - https://www.researchgate.net/publication/367453911_Large_lan...

Re: From word models to world models

#47
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's "absolutely trivial" to show that LLMs don't have the capacity to form thought, then please publish a paper proving that. So all the "stupid" people studying LLMs that can't come up with such trivial proofs can move on to other stuff.

You may wish to read the paper above. But if you want a quick proof: 1. A thought is a representation of a situation 2. A representation generates entailments of that situation 3. Language is many-to-one translation from these representations to symbols 4. Understanding language is reversing these symbols into thoughts (ie., reprs) So, 5. If agent A understands sentence X then A forms the relevant representation of X…

> 8. Train an LLM on Xc and it's accuracy on judging Y entailed by Xp is random.

This is clearly where the "proof" falls apart. Even in tasks where GPT4 struggles, it's accuracy will still be better than random. The bar of "better than random" is so low that even weak LLMs will be able to surpass it.

More so, you need to prove not just a single, but that no task/domain exists for which LLMs satisfy 8.

What your proof says is basically "LLMs do not generalize even the slightest for any task". And that's trivial to disprove.

Re: From word models to world models

#48
World modeling is impossible without sensory input.

You need constant modeling of touch/smell/vision/temperature, etc.

These senses give us an actual understanding of the physical world and drive our behavior in a way that pure language will never be able to.

Re: From word models to world models

#49
So they are using GPT-4 to write Lisp? Or some probabilistic language that looks like Lisp.

They keep saying LLMs but only GPT-4 can do it at that level. Although actually some of the examples were pretty basic so I guess it really depends on the level of complexity.

I feel like this could be really useful in cases where you want some kind of auditable and machine interpretable rationale for doing something. Such as self driving cars or military applications. Or maybe some robots. It could make it feasible to add a layer of hard rules in a way.

Re: From word models to world models

#50

Unfortunately, this effort fully misses the boat. Human cognition is about concepts, not language, and that's where one must start to understand it. Language simply serializes our conceptual thinking in multiple language formats, the key is what's being serialized and how that actually works in conceptual awareness.

Maybe they can’t be so fully separated. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity

I think the key point is that serialized words symbolize concepts and other logic such that if you can't retrieve that concept into your awareness, you will not understand the word. Learning and forming the concepts comes prior to attaching common word symbols to them based on the region you live in. So if you start with words, you never get anywhere, hence the complete lack of any intelligence in the LLM approach.
Post reply on HN