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Europe: Is compulsory military service coming back?

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Re: Europe: Is compulsory military service coming back?

#41

Post by FreshStart »

bpodgursky wrote: post #32
TheLoafOfBread wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

European army might be happening in the future, but entity protesting the European army the most will be USA diplomacy. On one hand US armed forces would like for Europe to be self sufficient so they can concentrate on China. On the other hand US diplomacy would lost leverage on Europe + getting another geopolitical competitor (despite being ideologically aligned with USA) isn't something what USA is looking for.

The US would like nothing more than Europe to be able to deal with Russia without help. A joint European army does nothing to reduce US leverage; the US is still the only meaningful nuclear deterrent to Russia, and everyone in Europe knows it. But if the EU is able to credibly counter conventional threats, that's a huge bonus for the US.

GB and France are?

Re: Europe: Is compulsory military service coming back?

#42

Post by beebeepka »

TheLoafOfBread wrote: post #13
andsoitis wrote: post #2

> The United Kingdom, the United States and Canada have had exclusively professional armies for 50 years or more. One idea would be for the EU, instead of individual member states, to stand up a professional army. Then you don't have to force people and it also just might bind European countries more closely together.

European army might be happening in the future, but entity protesting the European army the most will be USA diplomacy. On one hand US armed forces would like for Europe to be self sufficient so they can concentrate on China. On the other hand US diplomacy would lost leverage on Europe + getting another geopolitical competitor (despite being ideologically aligned with USA) isn't something what USA is looking for.

Mostly agree, except I don't think the US would like us to be self sufficient. Quite the opposite, really. They have nothing to gain from a strong EU. Not at this point anyway.

I am all for a professional EU army but forcing - let's face it - young men to join, even for an year, doesn't sit well with me.

Re: Europe: Is compulsory military service coming back?

#44

Post by 082349872349872 »

crote wrote: post #23

It simply doesn't make any sense for most European countries. First of all, there is no viable way to actually use conscripts. Sending them overseas to die over a patch of dirt is a really bad move, as the Vietnam war has shown. Europe doesn't really want to invade anyone, so you're left with defense. So who's going to invade? The only foe even worth considering is Russia - and NATO's combined professional armies are…

> anything further west just isn't going to happen.

Are you somehow not counting Austria, Greece, and Switzerland as European?

[pedantic edit: the parent, to my interpretation, does not just argue that "introducing conscription would be a poor idea" but that "conscription is a poor idea" (whether one already has it or not); maybe it would be better off refined to the former?]

Re: Europe: Is compulsory military service coming back?

#45

Post by crote »

mszcz wrote: post #12

I've always thought of those compulsory military training schemes as a little silly. You have a bunch of unmotivated people that don't want to be there. You have to house them, feed them, train them for what, 3, 6, 12 months? Seems like a lot of money. How long will that training last for? How soon will you need retraining to be even considered marginally useful? Isn't it better to spend that money on professional so…

It makes sense when there is a credible threat to the country. And if one exists, conscripts tend to be at least somewhat motivated. If you live right next to Russia, learning how to use a gun might be really useful one day.

But most of Europe doesn't have a credible threat.

Re: Europe: Is compulsory military service coming back?

#46

Post by jeltz »

Danieru wrote: post #33

The return of conscription would be the exact wrong conclusion from analyzing the Russian Invasion of Ukraine. Germany needs a competent army and non-sabotaging government supervision. Conscripts are not a replacement for competency. Such talk is little more than the a scapegoat measure to shift blame from those responsible.

Why would that be the wrong lesson? One of the main components in how Ukraine survived the first few weeks will likely turn out to be territorial defence and other similar low quality soldiers. Not the highly trained professional soldiers. Something needed to occupy the Russians while the country got ready for war.

Re: Europe: Is compulsory military service coming back?

#47

Post by braymundo »

lamedukc wrote: post #38
andsoitis wrote: post #2

> The United Kingdom, the United States and Canada have had exclusively professional armies for 50 years or more. One idea would be for the EU, instead of individual member states, to stand up a professional army. Then you don't have to force people and it also just might bind European countries more closely together.

[flagged]

[flagged]

Re: Europe: Is compulsory military service coming back?

#48

Post by wongarsu »

zabzonk wrote: post #14
adhvaryu wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

European Union is not a sovereign entity that can have its 'own' military.

the UK, with one of the more powerful militaries, is not part of the EU. many EU members and the UK are part of NATO which performs much the same job that an EU force would.

NATO armed forces would be under the command of the Supreme Allied Commander Europe, who by pure coincidence happens to always be an American. Right below him is the Deputy Supreme Allied Commander Europe, who has been British in 22/30 cases.

If the EU wants to have an army that serves their interests, I would consider it prudent to have the command of that army be in EU hands, instead of just handing their soldiers to the US. They can still join defensive treaties with the UK, or simply stay in NATO, but that's a different question from how the army is organized when Article 5 of NATO hasn't been triggered.

Re: Europe: Is compulsory military service coming back?

#49

Post by d0mine »

crote wrote: post #23

It simply doesn't make any sense for most European countries. First of all, there is no viable way to actually use conscripts. Sending them overseas to die over a patch of dirt is a really bad move, as the Vietnam war has shown. Europe doesn't really want to invade anyone, so you're left with defense. So who's going to invade? The only foe even worth considering is Russia - and NATO's combined professional armies are…

It makes sense if you think how to make profit on human suffering.

Re: Europe: Is compulsory military service coming back?

#50

Post by sylware »

Useless as if a direct conflict happens between the NATO and russia or china, it will be a nuclear holocaust.

Since NATO is mostly defence only, foreign indirect conflicts can be handled by professional military, aka not drafted.

If indirect conflicts create massive migrations (a type of war), the professional military may not be enough, and drafted military may be required to deal with the local "troubles" created by those massive migrations.

Some psychos say to eat the bullet: uk or/and france go nuke russia, without the involvement of the usa: nuclear annihilation of russia, france and/or uk. Then the huge us army goes cleanup russia (remove all remaining nukes), and the remains of uk/france would be taken over by the EU. Ofc, no more uk or/and france, but a future without the nukes from russia for the humanity.

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