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240W USB-C PD chargers are nearly here, says Framework CEO

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Re: 240W USB-C PD chargers are nearly here, says Framework CEO

#41
post #4

Waste heat seems like it would be a thing? Even at 95% efficiency (which is unrealistic), we're looking at a 12W heater.

The size of these kinds of high wattage passively cooled power adapters is dictated less by component density and more by what you can spread and dissipate through the enclosure with safe touch temperatures.

Re: 240W USB-C PD chargers are nearly here, says Framework CEO

#43
post #37
post #8

why was 240W picked as the upper limit for PD? Why does there even need to be an upper limit?

It’s designed around 48V and 5A. Higher voltages introduce additional risks around arcing and also get you into different safety regulations and requirements. Above 5A also starts to make cable and connector design difficult for a small connector like USB-C.

Last time I looked at the comms protocol, it seemed possible to request up to 10 amps. I'm not sure there's a physical spec for a matching cable, but there's also no way for a cable to communicate its current limitations.

Re: 240W USB-C PD chargers are nearly here, says Framework CEO

#44
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know that increasing voltage at those minuscule distances that usb-c opeates can cause electric arcs which is dangerous Increasing current on the other hand heats stuff up which... is also dangerous

USB-C solves the arcing problem in a similar way that CCS (EV chargers) does. It doesn't engage the high voltage pins until a low voltage pilot makes contact. I'm not sure exactly how USB solves that for disconnecting (CCS locks the connector in) but I imagine the pilot would disconnect first and that would kill the PD pins during disconnect.

> but I imagine the pilot would disconnect first and that would kill the PD pins during disconnect.

Don't imagine, just look at USB-C socket. So the answer is "not really", at least I didn't noticed pins for the power being longer

Re: 240W USB-C PD chargers are nearly here, says Framework CEO

#45
post #8

why was 240W picked as the upper limit for PD? Why does there even need to be an upper limit?

The usb-c connector is rated to 5 Amps (A). Usb-c went up to 20V already. 5A * 20V = 100W (where we are).

We didn't want to change the connector. So we are stuck at 5A. But we can raise voltage & still have some margin. So voltage was raised to 48V. 5A * 48V = 240W.

As for raising the voltage more, it's likely very technically feasible, but probably not, for safety reasons. There are various levels of what is considered safe voltages. Higher voltages have higher ability to injure humans, to cause shock or potentially spark. Voltage is a unit of electrical potential, essentially how bad some juice is desperate to get out. 50V is the "Safe Extra Low Voltage" (SELV) limit for AC. It's actually 120V for DC but 48V/50V has a certain dislodgable-for-now mindshare. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra-low_voltage

Connectors also have limits to their voltage isolation. If you have 1000V that electric potential really wants to get out & will arc across gaps. If there's debris or a worn connector, the threat of say 200V causing some short is much higher.

We probably could go higher. Usb-pd is super safe. When plugged in, it's in a very limited 5V state. This is a high risk moment in the connection life cycle, as pins are sliding into place, but partially connected & likely not aligned fully yet; not having any real voltage applied at this phase is a colossal design win against so so so many power delivery mechanisms in the world. Device & source _after being connected_ then have to negotiate power, on the secured connection. They ongoingly perform bounds checking to make sure the power is flowing in an expected way & will disconnect if out of spec. The connector has good isolation. 120v * 5a would be 600W and is still SELV. Add some thermal protection to the ports to make sure everything's OK there and it's probably going to just work. But any mishaps (ex: puncturing the cable, debris inside the device causing a short) would be more severe/scary. I'd love for some hackers to find out how high our connectors can go. Maybe in lab conditions we can get a usb-c connector doing a couple hundred volts fine. I would be unsurprised. Being safe for the real world though, after wear, and what happens when there is a fault is why we have SELV. But again, SELV says we could go up to 600W on this connector maybe.

One non-concern should be any additional heat, such as on cables & connectors. Since amps are still only 5A, the power loss is actually the same. Pretty great.

Re: 240W USB-C PD chargers are nearly here, says Framework CEO

#46
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because you have to size the cables based on amperage. The highest voltage supported by USB-PD is 20V. At 20V to deliver 240W you need 12 amps. That's already a fairly high number. At 300W you'd need 15 amps. So unless you want to drag around an NEC type cable as thick as one of your fingers, you need to set a limit. Edit: Fixed math. I haven't had caffeine yet.

While amperage is indeed a problem, PD 3.1 uses 48 volts to deliver 240W. https://www.usb.org/usb-charger-pd That’s only 5 amps, but such a high-ish voltage is enough to lead to arcing. Charging cables are likely to require additional safety measures.

Not even safety requirements, going above 48V will start subjecting to your device to electrical code.

Re: 240W USB-C PD chargers are nearly here, says Framework CEO

#47

Is it possible for a (laptop + USB-C PD power charger) to support multiple charging rates? My Lenovo Legion 5 has a 300W charger. Caveats: (a) I'm not sure if that's input power or output power; and (b) it's not a USB-C PD connector , but my question isn't specific to this laptop. Airplane A/C power outlets aren't willing to deliver that much power. And even if I was willing to slow-charge the laptop on an airplane o…

Yes, there exist many devices that support multiple charging rates. My phone allows the selection of 3 different wired charging speeds, as well as two different wireless charging speeds, selected in software.

Unfortunately, due to cost or incompetent engineering, most devices only accept either a few charging configurations, often just one.

I didn't realize this as my first laptop with USB-C ports could be charged with any USB charger, even a dumb 5v 500mA phone charger would eventually get the job done over a couple days. I just assumed everything was like this, but unfortunately not. A lot of laptops and cameras will refuse to draw any power at all unless they can negotiate certain configurations.

Re: 240W USB-C PD chargers are nearly here, says Framework CEO

#48
post #39
post #8

why was 240W picked as the upper limit for PD? Why does there even need to be an upper limit?

...ohm's law ? P = U * I. Yall skipped high school physics or something? USB cables can only get so thick. And voltages only can get so high to not be dangerous to people.

It's not really the thickness of the cable, is it? The constrained part, that has to stay the same regardless of what cable you buy, is the thickness of the pins on the connector. Where, presumably, any resistive heat from that connection is dumped into the body of the device being charged (just like resistive heat from operating a 1600W space heater with a big, thick extension cable gets dumped into your the electrical box behind the socket it's plugged into.)

Re: 240W USB-C PD chargers are nearly here, says Framework CEO

#49
On one side, I like the idea (and I use it a lot) with USB C to power a notebook. I have a small 65W travel adapter and I can charge my beefy HP Z-Book (it even works with a 45W adapter) or my smaller Fujitsu U939. But both notebooks still have real charging ports too and normaly I use those. A real charging port are much less fragile when moving the notebook while plugged in. USB C is very fragile and it is an very, very expensive port just to load a notebook. When you use it as docking station, then, yes it makes sense, but just for charging everyday, I still much prefer a normal charging plug.

Re: 240W USB-C PD chargers are nearly here, says Framework CEO

#50
post #8

why was 240W picked as the upper limit for PD? Why does there even need to be an upper limit?

Just watch: in the future we will have step up transformers instead of step down transformers so the charging cables can be thin again and charge fast
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