Waste heat seems like it would be a thing? Even at 95% efficiency (which is unrealistic), we're looking at a 12W heater.
240W USB-C PD chargers are nearly here, says Framework CEO
41–50 of 138 posts
Re: 240W USB-C PD chargers are nearly here, says Framework CEO
#42Re: 240W USB-C PD chargers are nearly here, says Framework CEO
#43why was 240W picked as the upper limit for PD? Why does there even need to be an upper limit?
It’s designed around 48V and 5A. Higher voltages introduce additional risks around arcing and also get you into different safety regulations and requirements. Above 5A also starts to make cable and connector design difficult for a small connector like USB-C.
Re: 240W USB-C PD chargers are nearly here, says Framework CEO
#44Earlier quoted context omitted.
I know that increasing voltage at those minuscule distances that usb-c opeates can cause electric arcs which is dangerous Increasing current on the other hand heats stuff up which... is also dangerous
USB-C solves the arcing problem in a similar way that CCS (EV chargers) does. It doesn't engage the high voltage pins until a low voltage pilot makes contact. I'm not sure exactly how USB solves that for disconnecting (CCS locks the connector in) but I imagine the pilot would disconnect first and that would kill the PD pins during disconnect.
Don't imagine, just look at USB-C socket. So the answer is "not really", at least I didn't noticed pins for the power being longer
Re: 240W USB-C PD chargers are nearly here, says Framework CEO
#45why was 240W picked as the upper limit for PD? Why does there even need to be an upper limit?
We didn't want to change the connector. So we are stuck at 5A. But we can raise voltage & still have some margin. So voltage was raised to 48V. 5A * 48V = 240W.
As for raising the voltage more, it's likely very technically feasible, but probably not, for safety reasons. There are various levels of what is considered safe voltages. Higher voltages have higher ability to injure humans, to cause shock or potentially spark. Voltage is a unit of electrical potential, essentially how bad some juice is desperate to get out. 50V is the "Safe Extra Low Voltage" (SELV) limit for AC. It's actually 120V for DC but 48V/50V has a certain dislodgable-for-now mindshare. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra-low_voltage
Connectors also have limits to their voltage isolation. If you have 1000V that electric potential really wants to get out & will arc across gaps. If there's debris or a worn connector, the threat of say 200V causing some short is much higher.
We probably could go higher. Usb-pd is super safe. When plugged in, it's in a very limited 5V state. This is a high risk moment in the connection life cycle, as pins are sliding into place, but partially connected & likely not aligned fully yet; not having any real voltage applied at this phase is a colossal design win against so so so many power delivery mechanisms in the world. Device & source _after being connected_ then have to negotiate power, on the secured connection. They ongoingly perform bounds checking to make sure the power is flowing in an expected way & will disconnect if out of spec. The connector has good isolation. 120v * 5a would be 600W and is still SELV. Add some thermal protection to the ports to make sure everything's OK there and it's probably going to just work. But any mishaps (ex: puncturing the cable, debris inside the device causing a short) would be more severe/scary. I'd love for some hackers to find out how high our connectors can go. Maybe in lab conditions we can get a usb-c connector doing a couple hundred volts fine. I would be unsurprised. Being safe for the real world though, after wear, and what happens when there is a fault is why we have SELV. But again, SELV says we could go up to 600W on this connector maybe.
One non-concern should be any additional heat, such as on cables & connectors. Since amps are still only 5A, the power loss is actually the same. Pretty great.
Re: 240W USB-C PD chargers are nearly here, says Framework CEO
#46Earlier quoted context omitted.
Because you have to size the cables based on amperage. The highest voltage supported by USB-PD is 20V. At 20V to deliver 240W you need 12 amps. That's already a fairly high number. At 300W you'd need 15 amps. So unless you want to drag around an NEC type cable as thick as one of your fingers, you need to set a limit. Edit: Fixed math. I haven't had caffeine yet.
While amperage is indeed a problem, PD 3.1 uses 48 volts to deliver 240W. https://www.usb.org/usb-charger-pd That’s only 5 amps, but such a high-ish voltage is enough to lead to arcing. Charging cables are likely to require additional safety measures.
Re: 240W USB-C PD chargers are nearly here, says Framework CEO
#47Is it possible for a (laptop + USB-C PD power charger) to support multiple charging rates? My Lenovo Legion 5 has a 300W charger. Caveats: (a) I'm not sure if that's input power or output power; and (b) it's not a USB-C PD connector , but my question isn't specific to this laptop. Airplane A/C power outlets aren't willing to deliver that much power. And even if I was willing to slow-charge the laptop on an airplane o…
Unfortunately, due to cost or incompetent engineering, most devices only accept either a few charging configurations, often just one.
I didn't realize this as my first laptop with USB-C ports could be charged with any USB charger, even a dumb 5v 500mA phone charger would eventually get the job done over a couple days. I just assumed everything was like this, but unfortunately not. A lot of laptops and cameras will refuse to draw any power at all unless they can negotiate certain configurations.
Re: 240W USB-C PD chargers are nearly here, says Framework CEO
#48why was 240W picked as the upper limit for PD? Why does there even need to be an upper limit?
...ohm's law ? P = U * I. Yall skipped high school physics or something? USB cables can only get so thick. And voltages only can get so high to not be dangerous to people.
Re: 240W USB-C PD chargers are nearly here, says Framework CEO
#49Re: 240W USB-C PD chargers are nearly here, says Framework CEO
#50why was 240W picked as the upper limit for PD? Why does there even need to be an upper limit?