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#42Earlier quoted context omitted.
You're absolutely right, it's definitely gatekeeping. That said, there's also a point in here that's often underappreciated. There's a big difference between someone who learns today's modern tools from nothing and someone who has a good foundation learning today's modern tools. I think it's fundamentally one of approach. The former treats coding as a trade where you just need to learn a few tools. The latter treats…
I've found in my years mentoring and teaching that showing something is much better at keeping them learning and interested than "Sit down and read 30 years of out dated documentation and coding practices just so you can feel the pain and agony I had, then and only then when you've proven yourself can you spit out that hello world on the screen, filthy scum!" Give them a codepen with modern React already bootstrapped…
You're completely right. That's a wonderfully kind, empathetic, and compassionate approach that's incredibly effective for teaching people what kind of power they are starting to have access to.
I've found it's also one that is very expensive as measured by instructional time and energy. I've also found it relatively ineffectual for teaching fundamentals.
I do not have to lecture someone about how they are unworthy and useless to know that understanding a bit of discrete mathematics, HTTP fundamentals, DNS, or relational algebra will make them better software engineers. There are absolutely people in this world who, when learning the glories of React with a codepen, will ask how things work several times and learn big-O notation... but there are far more who won't ask but would benefit from knowing anyway.
Do you think it's perhaps possible that people benefit from both a solid grasp of the often-boring fundamentals as well as feeling the joy of tinkering?
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#43"Today, almost 50% of code is written by AI" whats the source for this?
That probably sources back to a blog post from GitHub saying that almost half of new code was being written by copilot.
https://github.blog/2023-03-22-github-copilot-x-the-ai-power...
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#44"Today, almost 50% of code is written by AI" whats the source for this?
One "today" I'll be spot on.
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#45> Today's developers didn't learn binary before learning Python, why should you learn how to code without the most modern tools? This phrasing makes me wary. There's a difference between being self-taught, and not even bothering to teach yourself the absolute fundamentals of computing, like binary...
I don't really understand the hurdle to "learning binary". It's not necessary to understand how binary works to complete a hello world program, but I think it's something that you want to get a handle on pretty quickly. If I recall correctly, we only spent a few minutes on it in a larger lesson about different schemes for representing numbers in Comp Sci I. I don't think I've performed binary arithmetic since that cl…
By your own admission you have never used the knowledge you learned.
Why exactly is it “good to know how it works” if you literally have never used that knowledge? Why is it “something you want to get a handle on pretty quickly” if you don’t touch binary?
Are there places where it would come up? Most certainly. Is it required learning for every single dev out there? Highly debatable.
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#46"Learn to Code like a Developer" is a funny tag line to me. Isn't the point to become a developer? Or are you saying: "you're going to learn with modern tools, just like how a may use tools to facilitate coding?"
Maybe highlight the fact that you have an AI bot helping you through it. I would not have known it unless I read your HN comment.
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#47Earlier quoted context omitted.
Seconded. And I'd posit that learning CS theory and fundamentals like binary shouldn't be too difficult if the individual is savvy enough to grok the finer points of Python.
I dislike this perspective. I taught myself programming at age 12, well before undergrad. If I'd been forced to learn binary before I could make websites and games, I would have given up. I might have even avoided programming forever. I think the very first thing someone should learn is the fastest path to build something that interests and delights them. Theory can come later, when they're ready to appreciate it.
You could have made learning binary a game. Learning binary isn't difficult and should only take a few days to a week of lecture to grasp a sufficient understanding.
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#48Can someone turn the lights on? I'm light theme everything, I want that thang to sear my retinas when I load the page. About Codecademy: Has it changed there a lot recently? I had problems getting them to understand that I was not interested in the position a few years ago.
Likewise, my vision is not very good so black-on-white is easier for me to see than gray-on-black.
If you don't mind me asking - is it generally easier for you to read black-on-white or white-on-black? Or does it change e.g. based on the environment (bright room during day vs. darker room during night)?
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#49> Today's developers didn't learn binary before learning Python, why should you learn how to code without the most modern tools? This phrasing makes me wary. There's a difference between being self-taught, and not even bothering to teach yourself the absolute fundamentals of computing, like binary...
I'll argue - bitwise operations, they're fundamentals too, but If you arent working close to hardware, then for example doing bitwise operations may be really rare. I don't think I've met a problem that required them even once during my first few years as SE. I've had CS degree and years of experience and I werent proficient with those, I needed to write it down in steps and then I started working closer to hardware…
Boolean logic is close to bitwise operations and it is the knowledge without which nobody should dare to call themselves a software engineer.
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#50> Today's developers didn't learn binary before learning Python, why should you learn how to code without the most modern tools? This phrasing makes me wary. There's a difference between being self-taught, and not even bothering to teach yourself the absolute fundamentals of computing, like binary...
It would be unsettling for a software engineer to have little knowledge of the fundamentals.
But software engineers aren't the only people using python. I work with data scientists - with degrees in data engineering from computer science departments in very good universities - and I am certain that they believe a computer to be a magical box. I know for sure they're terrified of binary. Honestly, I'm looking forward to the day that they actually use functions and classes properly.
I wish I was exaggerating, I really do. It'd make my life easier. And it is no surprise - I've seen the supplementary material attached to papers that come out of those departments. I won't go into too much detail, but I don't know how any codebase could more closely resemble a house of cards and still function.
They still have successful careers in what they're good at. After all, one of the main reasons that python is so successful is that it can be used by people who don't know much - or care much - about programming. It can obviously be used by far more capable hands to do many more things, but for applied tasks it takes the pain out of learning something that they consider tangential.