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Profit-Price Spiral: Excess Profits Fuelling Inflation, Not Wages

futurework.org.au

41–50 of 98 posts

Re: Profit-Price Spiral: Excess Profits Fuelling Inflation, Not Wages

#41
post #36

Fake news. This is a measure of where inflation "goes", not what fuels inflation. The narrative that profits are "fueling" inflation is completely made up and the people pushing it are lying to everyone for political reasons. Inflation is caused - in most countries - by excessively loose monetary policy (sometimes fiscal policy, sometimes both). If government policy creates inflation (average prices go up) that money…

> This is a measure of where inflation "goes", not what fuels inflation. The narrative that profits are "fueling" inflation is completely made up and the people pushing it are lying to everyone for political reasons. Inflation is an increase in price level. When prices go up, one might consider that the price of inputs has gone up, or that profits has gone up, or both. If the inputs go up, and the price stays the sam…

If a company has for sake of argument a 10% profit margin on an item and seeks to maintain that 10% profit margin after an increase in its input costs then is that unreasonable?

In dollar terms its profits have gone up but as a percentage they haven't.

Re: Profit-Price Spiral: Excess Profits Fuelling Inflation, Not Wages

#42
post #4

Incredible that there's not even a mention of monetary policy. Are they proposing that corporations suddenly became greedy in 2020? During previous periods of low inflation, did they congratulate those corporations for their altruism in keeping prices low? Money is subject to the same laws of supply and demand as everything else, and when there's more of it, it's less valuable.

They do mention monetary policy. Is there something specific about monetary policy that you believe contributed to rising inflation?

I don't know if they're suggesting that corporations became greedy but rather that they unilaterally increased prices during the pandemic which is the main cause of inflation.

Re: Profit-Price Spiral: Excess Profits Fuelling Inflation, Not Wages

#43
post #41
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is a measure of where inflation "goes", not what fuels inflation. The narrative that profits are "fueling" inflation is completely made up and the people pushing it are lying to everyone for political reasons. Inflation is an increase in price level. When prices go up, one might consider that the price of inputs has gone up, or that profits has gone up, or both. If the inputs go up, and the price stays the sam…

If a company has for sake of argument a 10% profit margin on an item and seeks to maintain that 10% profit margin after an increase in its input costs then is that unreasonable? In dollar terms its profits have gone up but as a percentage they haven't.

> In dollar terms its profits have gone up but as a percentage they haven't.

Citation required.

Re: Profit-Price Spiral: Excess Profits Fuelling Inflation, Not Wages

#44

Fake news. This is a measure of where inflation "goes", not what fuels inflation. The narrative that profits are "fueling" inflation is completely made up and the people pushing it are lying to everyone for political reasons. Inflation is caused - in most countries - by excessively loose monetary policy (sometimes fiscal policy, sometimes both). If government policy creates inflation (average prices go up) that money…

I am not an expert in this field by any means but, Planet Money did a piece recently that suggested some people are putting forward a serious theory for how a profit-price spiral would work. Again, not an expert, but the reasoning ng seemed sound. Link here:

https://www.npr.org/2023/05/11/1175487806/corporate-profit-p...

Re: Profit-Price Spiral: Excess Profits Fuelling Inflation, Not Wages

#45
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a company has for sake of argument a 10% profit margin on an item and seeks to maintain that 10% profit margin after an increase in its input costs then is that unreasonable? In dollar terms its profits have gone up but as a percentage they haven't.

> In dollar terms its profits have gone up but as a percentage they haven't. Citation required.

I can't say whether that's actually happening or not, all I can say is it's a reasonable explanation as to why profits would be going up for many companies.

Re: Profit-Price Spiral: Excess Profits Fuelling Inflation, Not Wages

#46
post #41
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is a measure of where inflation "goes", not what fuels inflation. The narrative that profits are "fueling" inflation is completely made up and the people pushing it are lying to everyone for political reasons. Inflation is an increase in price level. When prices go up, one might consider that the price of inputs has gone up, or that profits has gone up, or both. If the inputs go up, and the price stays the sam…

If a company has for sake of argument a 10% profit margin on an item and seeks to maintain that 10% profit margin after an increase in its input costs then is that unreasonable? In dollar terms its profits have gone up but as a percentage they haven't.

I think it's reasonable for companies to want to have infinite profits and $0 in costs to produce. That's what they're supposed to do.

My point is that when the OP says "inflation is the result of monetary/fiscal policy" (EDIT: paraphrased, not quoted, improved accuracy of paraphrase) it's inaccurate: people did not spontaneously choose to consume more food and fuel because they had increased spending power, but those prices went up and so did profits

So some companies are able to increase prices disproportionately because of their unique position as price setters and lack of competition. They absorb any increase in spending power and/or fiscal stimulus. Increase in interest rates absorbs whatever is left over.

As those price increases filter through the economy, price levels increase further and so on.

If there was more diversity in the food and energy sectors, then prices would not have increased as much as they did, and the increased fiscal stimulus would have dissipated throughout the economy, making its way into the pockets of more small businesses.

Now: should the government not stimulate the economy? Well, I doubt it, then people would have been really in the shit.

Should the govdernment better target their stimulus? Absolutely, I know in Australia it was very inequitably distributed.

Should the government implement policies to prevent those sectors with the least competition from hiking prices to absorb fiscal stimulus meant to avoid recession, thus keeping a cap on price level increases? I think so.

And I think the linked article does a good job of demonstrating the way in which "profit-price" interactions are a better way to think about inflation rather than "wage-price" interactions, and thus why it's unreasonable to expect labour to shoulder the burden of suppressing inflation, rather than capital.

Re: Profit-Price Spiral: Excess Profits Fuelling Inflation, Not Wages

#47

Fake news. This is a measure of where inflation "goes", not what fuels inflation. The narrative that profits are "fueling" inflation is completely made up and the people pushing it are lying to everyone for political reasons. Inflation is caused - in most countries - by excessively loose monetary policy (sometimes fiscal policy, sometimes both). If government policy creates inflation (average prices go up) that money…

Any book about history of inflation shows the same pattern repeated over and over again, for the last 10,000 years: the government debases the money, e.g. the one ounce pure gold coin now is half gold half copper. They start to pay with those coins, at first at the same prices, but with the new demand rising prices go up. The government always try to put the blame on the greedy merchants, and always try to put price…

Precious metal coins is a concept that the ancient Greeks introduced and the Romans spread across their empire.

Ancient Egyptians didn't use precious metals. They used something far more mundane. You are a farmer? You bring your harvest of corn to a storage house and receive a receipt of your deposit on a clay tablet.

But here is the thing. Storing grains is expensive and they don't last forever, so the depositors are charged the cost of storage if they keep their receipts for longer than a year.

Now imagine you do the same thing except your receipt is gold. The concept of an eternally lasting receipt should raise an eyebrow. Who is going to pay for the storage costs? If nobody, then congratulations you just invented a Ponzi scheme! Early depositors get bailed out by future depositors!

Alternatively, the value of the coins must shrink to accommodate the loss of grains, but here is the thing. You are in a deflationary boom, you don't care about reality. But at some point you will try to spend your deflated money, right? Well, you will come crashing down to reality. The sudden price adjustment towards reality will cause a lot of inflation all at once.

Ok, so now that we know the dynamics of precious metal money even in the absence of government intervention, aka cycles of booms and busts.

We can now think about the motivation of the Roman Empire which is the most famous historic example of "debasement" because they were the first ones to do it on a large scale. Well, you see, the Roman empire was constantly expanding its borders to acquire new precious metal mines. This works until you run out of mines. In other words, it was a pyramid scheme that needs a constantly expanding territory.

So instead of thinking as precious metal money to be something aspirational, it would be smarter to realize that it doesn't work. I mean the easiest way to prove the idiocy of a gold standard is to point at all the fiat currencies that originated from a failed gold standard, which is basically all of them. In other words, fiat currencies aren't some kind of perversion of money, they are the late stage of a failed precious metal currency! It is easy to see why. Precious metal currencies don't circulate fast enough to clear the market because of their deflationary tendencies aka hoarding. So banks create a money substitute that is as good as the real thing but the problem is that the substitute can be hoarded as well so the problem can never be solved other than by substituting existing money with even more of the same hoardable money. In other words, the money supply has to rise all the time to accommodate uncoordinated/speculative saving decisions that have not been properly communicated to the market.

What I think is either sad or amusing, is that people think that these dynamics can somehow be avoided just by the government being tough enough on the economy to make all forms of money substitutes illegal, as if that wasn't some kind of massively disruptive government intervention.

Now let's go back to Ancient Egypt. If people hoarded the grain money, then the same dynamic would apply to that money right? The grain banks would have to create fake deposits for grains that don't exist and there would be constant runs on the banks, right? Except there is no historical evidence that this ever happened because people didn't want to pay the storage fee. Isn't it strange that this ancient civilization never recovered, even after thousands of years of Roman currency? Maybe the whole idea was a scam from the start. Permanence in our world is a meaningless concept. Your gold money will remain on earth billions of years after humanity has gone extinct, how exactly is it supposed to maintain its value?

Re: Profit-Price Spiral: Excess Profits Fuelling Inflation, Not Wages

#48
post #46
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a company has for sake of argument a 10% profit margin on an item and seeks to maintain that 10% profit margin after an increase in its input costs then is that unreasonable? In dollar terms its profits have gone up but as a percentage they haven't.

I think it's reasonable for companies to want to have infinite profits and $0 in costs to produce. That's what they're supposed to do. My point is that when the OP says "inflation is the result of monetary/fiscal policy" (EDIT: paraphrased, not quoted, improved accuracy of paraphrase) it's inaccurate: people did not spontaneously choose to consume more food and fuel because they had increased spending power, but thos…

I don't think op did say "inflation is the result of government spending" he said it was the result of excessive monetary stimulus. In other words the action of the federal reserve.

Re: Profit-Price Spiral: Excess Profits Fuelling Inflation, Not Wages

#49
post #48
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's reasonable for companies to want to have infinite profits and $0 in costs to produce. That's what they're supposed to do. My point is that when the OP says "inflation is the result of monetary/fiscal policy" (EDIT: paraphrased, not quoted, improved accuracy of paraphrase) it's inaccurate: people did not spontaneously choose to consume more food and fuel because they had increased spending power, but thos…

I don't think op did say "inflation is the result of government spending" he said it was the result of excessive monetary stimulus. In other words the action of the federal reserve.

OP did say:

> (sometimes fiscal policy, sometimes both)

Although it's also clear that monetary policy alone cannot stimulate the economy, otherwise there would have been a correlation between ZIRP and economic growth, and there wasn't.

Fiscal policy does stimulate the economy, and if properly targeted this can be done without inflation risk.

OPs main claim here is that the article is "fake news" because government monetary and/or fiscal policy is the main driver of inflation. While it may be the case that governments did stimulate the economy, the bulk of price level increases are not increased caused by demand (ie. people deciding to buy more stuff) but a combination of increase in inputs (supply problems) and monpolistic price setting by poorly regulated companies.

I concede that one might say that, in the absence of any government stimulus, there would also have been no price level increase, but I would also contend that in the absence of such a stimulus there would have been a depression and that a price level increase could have been avoided through better targeted stimulus and better regulation of companies.

Re: Profit-Price Spiral: Excess Profits Fuelling Inflation, Not Wages

#50
post #3

It does really feel like the cat is out of the bag that producers anywhere in the supply chain of housing and food realized they could do whatever they want and we can all suck wind. Every significant expense I have is up more than 40% in the past two years.

Competition is supposed to drive prices down to the equilibrium level. Why is it not happening? Are produces colluding to fix prices? Why new players are not entering the market to take advantage of higher prices?

Supply and demand mechanism can take years, decades to materialize a such stabilization. Wealth hoarders have the power to suck huge amounts of wealth out and destabilize the entire economy, just like has happened now.

"Capital in the Twenty-First Century" talks about this, great book.

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