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San Francisco: An Elitist Bubble Ignoring a Crime Epidemic?

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Re: San Francisco: An Elitist Bubble Ignoring a Crime Epidemic?

#41

Post by buggythebug »

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #32
ethbr0 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People move to a city because they want to be more like the people who already live there. But if too many move in too fast, the city instead becomes like them.

No, most people move to a city for a job - not because they think the average person that lives there is some aspirational target. SF had an abundance of jobs that paid a boat load of money, and people moved there to take those jobs. Not because it's close to Muir Woods and has the best weather in the world, and the people at cafes wear cool t-shirts (although nearly everyone who moves to SF tries their hardest to co…

Agreed. Going for the $$$ is a completely different and valid reason. But to say it's in the top 10 most fun and cultural cities is a giant reach.

Re: San Francisco: An Elitist Bubble Ignoring a Crime Epidemic?

#42

Post by Domenic_S »

uoaei wrote: post #13
belfalas wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A great history professor I had at university was very interested in California politics. His take after years of research was that the thing holding California back is Prop 13, which has to do with taxation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1978_California_Proposition_13 Dear HNers, please note: I understand Prop 13 is hugely controversial and the "third rail" of California politics. I don't have a dog in this fight, I…

The only ones who get upset when you point this out are people who thought they could get away with and benefit from such a loophole. They see no problem with excluding others from the possibility of enjoying the same benefit as long as they already have it. Climbing a ladder and then pulling it up after you is anti-social and shameful.

What are you talking about? Prop 13 applies to every homeowner.

Re: San Francisco: An Elitist Bubble Ignoring a Crime Epidemic?

#43

Post by alexb_ »

Dig1t wrote: post #34
alexb_ wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The nuance is that with restrictions on property tax there is absolutely no disincentive for citizens to support local policies that restrict housing development. You are incentivized to keep the housing supply as low as you can possibly get it, because raising the price of your own property has zero downsides. This creates homelessness due to a restricted supply of housing.

>support local policies that restrict housing development You are absolutely correct that this is the problem. But the solution is not to disincentivize home ownership with a tax, it is to fix zoning itself. Homeowners will still have an incentive to restrict housing supply even with a tax. However if you restricted the power of local zoning boards to tell people what they are allowed to build on their own land, then…

Asking to change policy without changing the incentives that led to said policy is a fool's errand. You have to change what people are incentivized to do to actually change anything because people respond to incentives, not ideas. The way you fix zoning itself is by incentivizing people do to so.

Plus, that's not the only supply problem that comes from Prop 13. People don't want to ever sell their houses because that means their property tax will be reassessed when they move. That's another huge problem caused by Prop 13.

Re: San Francisco: An Elitist Bubble Ignoring a Crime Epidemic?

#44

Post by khuey »

Dig1t wrote: post #22
belfalas wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A great history professor I had at university was very interested in California politics. His take after years of research was that the thing holding California back is Prop 13, which has to do with taxation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1978_California_Proposition_13 Dear HNers, please note: I understand Prop 13 is hugely controversial and the "third rail" of California politics. I don't have a dog in this fight, I…

Is the argument basically just "arg if only we could collect even more taxes we could use the money to fix all our problems"? California already has super high taxes that are skewed towards taxing the rich more. Seems like a joke at this point saying that they need even higher taxes. Also California's system of propositions is one of the closest forms of direct democracy available anywhere, if you like democracy then…

A better argument is "distributing the tax burden based on how long somebody's family has owned property in the same place has a large number of negative effects."

One (of many) serious problem(s) with Prop 13 is that it removes an important feedback mechanism whereby inflating property values result in higher taxes which gives even those who currently own property a financial incentive to support policies that keep housing prices in check. With that feedback mechanism removed, a property-owning homo economicus's rational move is to support policies that drive property values sky high (e.g. very restrictive residential zoning to limit competition while simultaneously seeking intense commercial growth to boost demand) at the expense of other members of the community (e.g. renters and future generations), and that's exactly what has happened in California over the last several decades.

Re: San Francisco: An Elitist Bubble Ignoring a Crime Epidemic?

#45

Post by lcnPylGDnU4H9OF »

bluefishinit wrote: post #36
sylens wrote: post #29

You're seeing this everywhere. Chicago, Philadelphia, and so on - although the problem may be worse in San Francisco. Cities are struggling in the post-pandemic era as the rising cost of living due to inflation in food and other essentials has driven more criminal activity, mostly around theft. This is happening at the same time where many cities are also trying more progressive, reform-based approaches to policing a…

> Cities are struggling in the post-pandemic era as the rising cost of living due to inflation in food and other essentials has driven more criminal activity Wouldn't it make more sense and be potentially more cost effective if the focus was on giving people food and other essentials so they could survive without having to steal scooters? Police and prison are super expensive. You're going to be paying for the food,…

It seems to be an unfortunate truth that private, for-profit prisons are the opposite of expensive.

Re: San Francisco: An Elitist Bubble Ignoring a Crime Epidemic?

#46

Post by DoreenMichele »

sylens wrote: post #29

You're seeing this everywhere. Chicago, Philadelphia, and so on - although the problem may be worse in San Francisco. Cities are struggling in the post-pandemic era as the rising cost of living due to inflation in food and other essentials has driven more criminal activity, mostly around theft. This is happening at the same time where many cities are also trying more progressive, reform-based approaches to policing a…

A lot of city residents need to come to terms with the fact that some of these progressive criminal justice reforms may need to be adjusted a bit, given that we now have years of evidence of their effects.

And/or:

We need to make affordable housing available, make a car-optional lifestyle more viable, etc.

"The beatings shall continue until morale improves" isn't an effective approach to anything, especially since if the victims of such hostile policies actually rise to the occasion, they are typically not rewarded by having their lives work better. Instead, policymakers go "Oh, beatings worked! Let's do more of that!"

(Hard eyeroll)

Re: San Francisco: An Elitist Bubble Ignoring a Crime Epidemic?

#47

Post by [deleted] »

Dig1t wrote: post #22
belfalas wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A great history professor I had at university was very interested in California politics. His take after years of research was that the thing holding California back is Prop 13, which has to do with taxation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1978_California_Proposition_13 Dear HNers, please note: I understand Prop 13 is hugely controversial and the "third rail" of California politics. I don't have a dog in this fight, I…

Is the argument basically just "arg if only we could collect even more taxes we could use the money to fix all our problems"? California already has super high taxes that are skewed towards taxing the rich more. Seems like a joke at this point saying that they need even higher taxes. Also California's system of propositions is one of the closest forms of direct democracy available anywhere, if you like democracy then…

[deleted]

Re: San Francisco: An Elitist Bubble Ignoring a Crime Epidemic?

#48

Post by pbiggar »

So long as SF continues to criminalize homelessness instead of actual crime, the city will never get out of this.

The problem San Francisco faces is that the various parties cannot agree what crime is. In particular, the folks in charge (Mayor, SFPD, and DA) are spending their time persecuting and criminalizing homelessness and drug addiction. We might generously say this is because it is visible, and also because of the fact that when middle class folks see visible poverty they think crime is high.

But what we see here is an organized group breaking in and leisurely stealing valuable stuff. It has been studied and it is well known that organized crime gangs are doing the bulk of theft in SF, with the last DA (who was recalled for being "too soft on crime") managing to break up an organized gang of laptop thieves who got them from breaking in to cars. Though, naturally, the good people of SF had been blaming car thefts on the homeless.

And the new DA won't even file charges against a broad-daylight murder, because the victim was homeless. Absolutely incredible the hoops they'll jump through to avoid prosecuting and stopping real crime, when there are homeless people they can fuck with instead.

Re: San Francisco: An Elitist Bubble Ignoring a Crime Epidemic?

#49

Post by forgetfulness »

bluefishinit wrote: post #36
sylens wrote: post #29

You're seeing this everywhere. Chicago, Philadelphia, and so on - although the problem may be worse in San Francisco. Cities are struggling in the post-pandemic era as the rising cost of living due to inflation in food and other essentials has driven more criminal activity, mostly around theft. This is happening at the same time where many cities are also trying more progressive, reform-based approaches to policing a…

> Cities are struggling in the post-pandemic era as the rising cost of living due to inflation in food and other essentials has driven more criminal activity Wouldn't it make more sense and be potentially more cost effective if the focus was on giving people food and other essentials so they could survive without having to steal scooters? Police and prison are super expensive. You're going to be paying for the food,…

What would be stopping people from taking the aid and stealing the scooters anyway? You can only rely so much on the inherent goodness of humans.

Add organized crime into the mix and you run into the problem that might makes right for plenty of people, specially if there's easy money and "respect" involved.

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