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Auschwitz museum criticizes use of death camp in politics

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Re: Auschwitz museum criticizes use of death camp in politics

#41

Post by s1artibartfast »

autokad wrote: post #22
s1artibartfast wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point is that shallow references and use of Nazi images in ad hominem attacks does does not contribute meaningfully to any discussion. If you want to use the Holocaust to draw a comparison, it should have substance. Without substance, anyone can make shallow comparisons.

who decides what is substance?

What I meant by substance is that there is some effort to actually explain a comparison and thought. Not just a statement of fact or reference. Essentially making a case.

What I mean is different than accuracy. You could write an essay or book comparing something to Nazism, and be right or wrong, but at least you're making a case.

If you're just claiming a comparison without presenting a case, you can also be right or wrong, but you're not doing anything more than throwing a name around and making an ad hominem attack.

Re: Auschwitz museum criticizes use of death camp in politics

#42

Post by jakelazaroff »

jruohonen wrote: post #30
plorg wrote: post #26

The title here is in line with HN guidelines but does a disservice to the actual article as it suggests the criticism is far more abstract than it actually is. It rises in direct response to specific use by Polish political actors.

The one and only reason for the title is the length limit.

Is "Auschwitz museum criticizes use of death camp in Polish political ad" too long?

Re: Auschwitz museum criticizes use of death camp in politics

#43

Post by jruohonen »

that_guy_iain wrote: post #37
jcranmer wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Furthermore, if you read any of the books written by Germans who lived through that time they'll often say they didn't know what was happening and in one book about a kid who went through the ranks of the Hitler youth, I believe he thought they were fine in the camps and thought people just moved away. From what I've read, the Holocaust was a pretty open secret in Germany. Wikipedia [1] cites studies suggesting tha…

What have you been reading? And an open secret pretty much means it wasn't public policy or politics. And higher estimates don't really make sense, why were the allied forces in the dark? Why were the death camps in Poland and not Germany? People who were living nearby, I will never be convinced they didn't know. But expecting someone in Fankfurt am Main to know about the mass executions happening in small towns in P…

> Why were the death camps in Poland and not Germany?

Bergen-Belsen, Buchenwald, Dachau, Oranienburg, Ravensbrück, Sachsenhausen...

You can argue about the semantics (i.e., death camps versus concentration camps), but massive executions happened in both, and some of these were established throughout Germany almost immediately after the regime change in 1933.

That said, see the points below about Holocaust.

Re: Auschwitz museum criticizes use of death camp in politics

#44

Post by jcranmer »

that_guy_iain wrote: post #37
jcranmer wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Furthermore, if you read any of the books written by Germans who lived through that time they'll often say they didn't know what was happening and in one book about a kid who went through the ranks of the Hitler youth, I believe he thought they were fine in the camps and thought people just moved away. From what I've read, the Holocaust was a pretty open secret in Germany. Wikipedia [1] cites studies suggesting tha…

What have you been reading? And an open secret pretty much means it wasn't public policy or politics. And higher estimates don't really make sense, why were the allied forces in the dark? Why were the death camps in Poland and not Germany? People who were living nearby, I will never be convinced they didn't know. But expecting someone in Fankfurt am Main to know about the mass executions happening in small towns in P…

> What have you been reading?

It was a library book, so I don't remember the name or the author. But it was using the letters of Germans during WW2 to look at what the general German population felt about the war as it went on.

By the time that the regime starts opening up the extermination camps, it's pretty clear to the public that the goal is to kill all the Jews, even if this is being described with euphemisms. And from time to time, the officials would actually admit that they now have industrial-scale mass murdering camps, and the reaction is essentially "... they're saying the quiet parts out loud."

> Why were the death camps in Poland and not Germany?

Oh, that's an easy one. Most of the Jews were in Poland, and not Germany.

Re: Auschwitz museum criticizes use of death camp in politics

#45

Post by ck2 »

discordianfish wrote: post #20
ck2 wrote: post #7

I'm more horrified by the discovery there are endless selfies taken there: https://metro.co.uk/2017/01/19/powerful-images-that-show-why...

To be clear, this is not the Auschwitz museum. Point still stands.

Ah you are correct, I posted the wrong link.

Someone actually wrote a paper on it with examples

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/17506980221101111

The real problem is vast majority of society has long forgotten and doesn't want to remember the final horror of fascism "othering" minorities, anti-diversity, etc. and that's why it appears in politics.

Re: Auschwitz museum criticizes use of death camp in politics

#46

Post by jruohonen »

jakelazaroff wrote: post #42
jruohonen wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The one and only reason for the title is the length limit.

Is "Auschwitz museum criticizes use of death camp in Polish political ad" too long?

I just cut the title from around the middle. I think it is better to steer away from trying to edit other people's titles.

Re: Auschwitz museum criticizes use of death camp in politics

#47

Post by Timon3 »

pphysch wrote: post #38
Invictus0 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Judaism is a largely unorganized religion with no military. Russia is a large hostile state with a history of attacking Poland and possessor of, at one point, a strong military.

The Nazi belief at the time was that Judaism was an integral component of "Judeo-Bolshevism" i.e. the USSR so it is not correct to assert that there was "no military" -- the USSR had a rapidly growing industrial military. German fascists thought that all Jewish people were in cahoots with the USSR, which was Definitely trying to conquer all of Europa. Polish fascists think all ethnically Russian people are in cahoots…

> German fascists thought that all Jewish people were in cahoots with the USSR, which was Definitely trying to conquer all of Europa.

This is easily proven false on the grounds that not all Jewish people had any connection to the USSR. You have to accept a falsehood for this conclusion.

> Polish fascists think all ethnically Russian people are in cahoots with the RF MoD, which is Definitely trying to conquer all of Europa.

All ethnically Russian people could have a connection to Russia, many are likely to. This means you don't have to accept a falsehood for this conclusion.

Let's not try to equate completely disparate situations, or we'll have to treat the Flat Earth movement with the same level of comparability.

Re: Auschwitz museum criticizes use of death camp in politics

#48

Post by bogantech »

ck2 wrote: post #45
discordianfish wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be clear, this is not the Auschwitz museum. Point still stands.

Ah you are correct, I posted the wrong link. Someone actually wrote a paper on it with examples https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/17506980221101111 The real problem is vast majority of society has long forgotten and doesn't want to remember the final horror of fascism "othering" minorities, anti-diversity, etc. and that's why it appears in politics.

There's just something wrong with people who have to take selfies all the time.

I did a tour of Auschwitz recently and even after half a day of a tour that showed the horrors that occurred there people were taking selfies.

Re: Auschwitz museum criticizes use of death camp in politics

#49

Post by AtlasBarfed »

I think it is more of a commentary that fascism / totalitarianism is a still a far too plausible political risk in the modern world, even in the most "advanced" countries.

The US has engaged in concentration camps and separation of families in immigration in the last decade, under both Democratic and Republican administrations. Trump was a totalitarian leader in everything except competence.

Propaganda is becoming shockingly effective when married to social media, and the next election cycle will likely see frightening AI-powered media "weaponry".

I find it more scary that the statement has traction rather than anything about what they are actually trying to say. The post and it being upvoted is a reflection of the plausibility of fascism.

Re: Auschwitz museum criticizes use of death camp in politics

#50

Post by engineer_22 »

Invictus0 wrote: post #33
photochemsyn wrote: post #12

The Polish law in question that sparked the controversy is very 1930s Germany in nature, as can be seen if we replace "Russian" with "Jewish" in the description (and "Poland" with "Germany"): > "(AP) The law would establish a state commission for investigating Russian influence in Poland and on national security with the powers of prosecutor and judge." Given that the adoption of totalitarian powers is more-or-less r…

Judaism is a largely unorganized religion with no military. Russia is a large hostile state with a history of attacking Poland and possessor of, at one point, a strong military.

> Judaism is a largely unorganized religion with no military

Well, except that one nuclear armed nation state in the middle east.

Besides that... I think your interlocutors are trying to point out that boogey-man politics leads people the wrong way, as evidenced by 20th century European wars.

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