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I have resigned from all roles in rustlang, effective immediately

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Re: I have resigned from all roles in rustlang, effective immediately

#41

What is it about Rust that attracts so much drama like this? Someone has to do the calculus here. It can't be the sheer number of developers because Rust is still a niche language. Why does Rust have these kind of shenanigans and attract people that either cause these problems or experience these problems? The only other language that comes close is the V language, but that's mostly people shitting on the language (f…

Rust is exactly the kind of movement where everyone is going to take themselves very seriously at every turn, this is bound to happen.

Re: I have resigned from all roles in rustlang, effective immediately

#42

Resigning over someone else’s talk being bumped into a different slot? All seems overly dramatic.

My understanding (I've never had the mispleasure of running a conference) is that keynote talks are very different from regular talks. With regular talks, presenters submit talk proposals, the conference committee select which talks to give. With keynote talks, the committee instead asks a specific presenter to give a specific talk. So when someone, who is hesitant in the first place about the appropriateness of thei…

But to be clear, in this case they werent asked to give a specific talk. The speaker came up with it.

Re: I have resigned from all roles in rustlang, effective immediately

#43
post #9

It seems the person who resigned here was on the Rust core team, and had been involved in Rust for quite a long time ( https://internals.rust-lang.org/t/announcement-jonathan-turn... ).

In no way defending the sloppy conference planning or how the former keynote speaker got screwed here, but...unless I'm missing something it seems pretty disproportionate to completely leave a community you've invested over seven years of your life in over sloppy conference planning, doesn't it? I feel like I'm missing something.

I agree it seems like a disproportionate act to take given the situation as the author described it, but this certainly does seem like the kind of scenario that involves a lot of context that goes unmentioned.

One explanation for this sequence of events is that the conference planners had since found a new compelling topic reflective of the project's direction to be covered in a keynote speech, in which case the natural topic to replace is one that discusses a "possible"/hypothetical idea. I'm sure there was a better way for leadership to handle this, in particular around communicating their intentions, but this shortcoming seems much more likely a case of incompetence rather than malice towards the speaker, given the lack of information to support the latter.

Re: I have resigned from all roles in rustlang, effective immediately

#44
My understanding of the situation is this:

At the request of Rust Project, JeanHeyd is asked to give a keynote at RustConf. JeanHeyd is reluctant, worried that their topic is too speculative and too much like a proposal for implementing a Rust feature. They ask around and get told it’s definitely ok, please don’t decline the talk, etc. Later, after the talk is prepared, RustConf contacts JeanHeyd to say their talk has been downgraded from keynote, at the request of Rust Project. The reason given is that Rust Project does not want to endorse their direction on this feature. It is not a very good reason, as JeanHeyd had already taken many steps to make it clear in the talk that this is speculative, was not offered a chance to make changes to the talk that make it even more clear that Rust Project doesn’t endorse it, was only giving a talk on this topic because Rust Project requested it in the first place, and there have been other keynotes that also run afoul of this reason but were not bumped in this manner. JeanHeyd writes a blog post explaining this, retracting their talk entirely, and posing the question: what is the real reason for the bump? Later, JT resigns from all roles in rustlang, citing JeanHeyd’s blog post but not otherwise elaborating.

Obviously, all the interesting stuff is happening below the surface here. I’ll hazard a few guesses (and that’s all they are, just guesses; I don’t know the situation and I don’t know the people in it, nor am I speaking for them):

1. “Losing an internal political battle”. JT may have been involved in having Rust Project push JeanHeyd for the talk. Others in Rust Project were against the talk, and had Rust Project reverse course on it. JT resigns in protest.

2. “Discovering and being dismayed by internal politics”. People outside the Rust Project were echoing JeanHeyd’s question, what is the real reason here? JT is well-connected and respected in the Rust community and may have tried to find out the real reason. Perhaps JT finds the real reason and is disgusted (or perhaps JT gets similarly stonewalled, and is disgusted by that), and resigns.

3. (More speculative, based on both JeanHeyd and JT being open about their neurodivergence, drawing on my own as well) “Autists trying to avoid internal politics”. Many aspects of how Rust Project handled this situation would be uncomfortable for autistic individuals (opaque decision-making process, abrupt reversal, inadequate justification, not up for debate - to name a few). JT may therefore find it inhospitable, and so resigns.

Re: I have resigned from all roles in rustlang, effective immediately

#46
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Terminally-online people behave like this, on average. No we do not. Do we?

If you don’t, you might not be online nearly enough.

All true Scotsmen are always online.

Re: I have resigned from all roles in rustlang, effective immediately

#47
post #34
post #30

So someone getting upset over their powerpoint presentation getting downgraded from being part of the RustConf keynote. That’s it? Much like an explosion in an ant hill.

1. They didn't submit a talk or intend to give one 2. They were specifically invited to give a keynote and decided to do so at their request 3. Repeatedly confirmed the topic was ok 4. Put a lot of work into the keynote 5. Told last minute they would not be giving a keynote with no reason I'd be upset. This is not how you treat your community.

That is even worse.

But ever since the Rust Foundation was formed there was no 'community', only corporate interests, so actions like this is typical of them.

Either way, it seems that the 'Rust foundation' is taking everyone involved downhill. Perhaps the Rust core team are realising very late on the way that the structure of the foundation being a big problem as I said before. [0]

Focusing more on 'code' than on the problems with the governance structure which is the reason why they are now finally realising that they have created the same problems which has been seen before in the Linux foundation.

After all, both are 501(c)6 orgs and serve the interests of corporations more than the community and if they were a community then it should have been set up as a 501(c)3 instead.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35592650

Re: I have resigned from all roles in rustlang, effective immediately

#48

What is it about Rust that attracts so much drama like this? Someone has to do the calculus here. It can't be the sheer number of developers because Rust is still a niche language. Why does Rust have these kind of shenanigans and attract people that either cause these problems or experience these problems? The only other language that comes close is the V language, but that's mostly people shitting on the language (f…

My working hypothesis: it attracts puzzle solvers, people who have a passion for – and sometimes an obsession with – perfect systems. When applied to life outside of the confines of the type system, it can lead to a black and white thinking that ironically explains the behavior of both parties: the organizers unwilling to admit to their medium sized mistake and the speaker rage quitting in response. It’s all or nothing. It either compiles and is correct or it’s incomprehensible nonsense.

All organizations and their people make mistakes. Most people intrinsically expect that the world is somewhat fuzzy, including most engineering types. Responsibilities and conduct isn’t formalized, it loosely follows a set of cultural expectations. The good side effect of this fuzziness is that mistakes happen so often that you start expecting them. And then you don’t have to get upset or part ways when something bad happened. How you as an individual or organization recover from these mistakes is a lot more important than trying to stop them from happening.

People who think mistakes are unacceptable are often the same types who are the most unwilling to recognize their own mistakes.

Re: I have resigned from all roles in rustlang, effective immediately

#49
post #21
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In no way defending the sloppy conference planning or how the former keynote speaker got screwed here, but...unless I'm missing something it seems pretty disproportionate to completely leave a community you've invested over seven years of your life in over sloppy conference planning, doesn't it? I feel like I'm missing something.

They reached out to him to give a talk he wasn’t ready to do. He obliges, works to make it happen, and gets blindsided by organizational politics. If he feels the organization and leadership neither respect him personally or his efforts, it’s a perfectly proportionate response. Not sure how I’d react in his exact situation, but once trust and mutual respect are gone, so am I.

You realize you are speaking about 2 different people as if they are one?

Re: I have resigned from all roles in rustlang, effective immediately

#50

What is it about Rust that attracts so much drama like this? Someone has to do the calculus here. It can't be the sheer number of developers because Rust is still a niche language. Why does Rust have these kind of shenanigans and attract people that either cause these problems or experience these problems? The only other language that comes close is the V language, but that's mostly people shitting on the language (f…

>What is it about Rust that attracts so much drama like this?

Well, one has to ask whether Rust actually has "more" drama than average, or if it just tends to be more public. I lean towards the latter. I mean, people have gotten into shouting matches that nearly escalated to fistfights at CPP conferences, but that all happens behind closed doors.

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