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Lojban: Constructed language to eliminate ambiguity from communication

mw.lojban.org

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Re: Lojban: Constructed language to eliminate ambiguity from communication

#41
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d be interested in hearing more about this. Don’t know much about formal semantics (and in fact am somewhat skeptical of the whole field), but I do have a background in language construction, and would say I have a fairly good knowledge of linguistics more generally.

My email is in my profile. Formal semantics is a broad field full of some very interesting and practical theories, and a lot of quackery. I don't blame you for being skeptical. Specifically though I think that Lucas Champollion has done a great job of marrying Davidsonian event semantics with more modern work on qualifiers and counterfactuals that finally creates--I believe--an universal framework for capturing the f…

> My email is in my profile.

OK, I’ll email you if you want to continue this discussion elsewhere.

> https://champollion.hosting.nyu.edu

Looks interesting… where should I start reading?

> If I am correct in this assessment, then the next logical step from a conlang/auxlang perspective is: can we build a direct, unambiguous spoken grammar for this universal semantics framework? If so, then we will have achieved what Lojban failed to even attempt: unambiguous meaning.

Personally, I’m not sure if ‘unambiguous meaning’ is possible or even desirable. Even if formal semantics allows us to achieve complete unambiguity when it comes to grammatical categories (quantifiers, temporal and spatial setting, etc.), I think it would be exceedingly difficult to make every single lexeme completely unambiguous. And even if this were achieved, I’m not sure if such a language would even be usable by humans. Still, it would be an interesting experiment!

Re: Lojban: Constructed language to eliminate ambiguity from communication

#42
post #9

I vaguely remember a TNG* episode in which humans encounter an alien race that found our language too ...inaccurate, and spent a lot of time going over each word and sentence, to precisely define its meaning. * Was it TNG or am I dreaming? *edit: Thank you everyone, but it wasn't "Darmok". The humans and the aliens were working, for a long time, on a treaty of sorts because the human language was so confusing and amb…

“Darmok” is Internet favorite, about a species which language is exclusively in analogy that the translator could not be set up, and they decide to kidnap Picard to establish vocabulary over a campfire.

There were couple episodes in Voyager in which aliens deem humans interesting but lesser, and tries to experiment or study on crews. One that I remember ended up in a ship self destruction, in another the doctor leaving his copy. As to why they didn’t simply ask Borg for a zipped archive, I don’t know.

The Dominion commanders throughout DS9 must have made similar remarks, and so should Cardassians have. Q would outright say so in spite, corrupted Data might. Maybe combination of those? Or maybe I’m just a suboptimal Trekkie :p

Re: Lojban: Constructed language to eliminate ambiguity from communication

#43
post #6

I don't know if eliminating ambiguity is even possible, much less a key feature of the language. There's even prominent ambiguity on this page: > Lojban means different things to different people

Ambiguity is an intrinsic quality of language. The first words that an infant learns are exclusively learned through ostensive definitions (defining by pointing). This implies that the meaning of those words is fundamentally different to each of us, as it's founded on our phenomenological experience and not through the dictionary. Further words are learned to combine previous definitions and more ostensive definition…

I think going from the difference in environment in learning first words to the meaning of those words being fundamentally different for everyone is a non sequitur.

Specifically when not defining the ambigous concept „meaning“ and without sketching the assumed mechanism by which they are learned and turned into language.

Re: Lojban: Constructed language to eliminate ambiguity from communication

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might like Mini / Mini Kore. I no joke believe that the eventual end state of linguistic evolution is an ideographic written language with emoji as characters.

That would be terrible. Ideographic written languages are hard to learn (you need to memorize much more to get basic skills) and hard to parse (tokenization is more difficult). Of course, if that means the entire world speaks the same language, the price would be worth it. But I doubt we will converge on anything that is difficult to master, since water takes the path of least resistance.

That's not actually true. When MacArthur tried to get rid of the use of Chinese characters in Japanese writing during the post-WW2 occupation, he backed off when it was embarrassingly pointed out that Japan had a higher literacy rate than the US, despite having less of an investment in state schools at the time. Studies have shown that it does not take more time or effort for a child to learn to read and write Chinese or Japanese (assuming those are their native spoken languages) than for an American student to learn to read/write English. It may defy what you think you know as common sense, but it is a replicable observation.

The reason for this is that nobody except little children actually read by sounding out individual letters of words. That would be too much for the human mind to process in real time. You learn to read by recognizing particular clusters of lines on a paper or screen as having semantic meaning, and your brain translates that directly. The imlpiactoin is the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. (Did you read that OK?)

So essentially, you and a Chinese person both put in the same amount of effort to learn the same number of squiggly lines on paper as having semantic meaning, and memorizing a mapping of squiggles to words. It's just that in English the pronunciation is emphasized in the writing, whereas in Chinese it is mainly the meaning of the word that is focused on. But given that in this age most of our communication is through text which may never even be read aloud, it does make one wonder if the Chinese had the right idea all along.

But if so, rather than use a 3000 year old writing system with a lot of inherited historical baggage, why not start afresh? Keep the same basic concept (digital pictures in squares representing atomistic units of meaning, aligned in sequential order according to a grammar), but allow the pictures to make full benefit of today's digital display and font rendering technology. The logical end result of this is, I believe, emoji. Or something very close to it / evolved from it.

To get an idea of what I mean, you might want to check out Xu Bing's "Book from the Ground", which is a very readable book written in emoji, or something close to it. You can read about his work here:

https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/emojis-comics-novel-futu...

Re: Lojban: Constructed language to eliminate ambiguity from communication

#45
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The goal of Lojban is to eliminate syntactic/grammatical ambiguity: Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana. In this example, "flies" could be either a noun or verb depending on context. That sort of construct isn't possible in Lojban. Of course, it's still possible to use Lojban to express statements that have an ambiguous or unclear meaning.

Ah, classic HN Saturday morning - finding myself dreaming up Hungarian notation in English to disambiguate grammatical types nTime vFlies avLike an nArrow, nFruit vFlies avLike a nBanana It's ugly but if we all adhere to this convention and haze our juniors, we'll eliminate most our problems

This is basically what Esperanto and Ido do, different word classes and in different letters.

Re: Lojban: Constructed language to eliminate ambiguity from communication

#46
Why is it so hard, and why hasn't anybody done it before? The whole problem seems trivial to me. You need a language where

    - first you need your words to have only one meaning. You can even use an existing vocabulary, like English, or Esperanto. 
    - then you need to be express math/logic/structured programming.
That's it, now you have a language without any ambiguity. If there are some ambiguity in the objects/concepts that you are referring, then use your language more to specify the object.

Re: Lojban: Constructed language to eliminate ambiguity from communication

#48
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the overuse of the copula "is/are" is a consistent source of mistakes whether accidental or purposeful I’m not sure I’d characterise these as ‘mistakes’, per se . They’re just a consequence of the fact that the copula is multifunctional — just like every other English word. In fact, you could similarly criticise almost any common word: ‘go’, ‘from’, ‘good’, ‘like’, ‘not’…

> the copula is multifunctional Exercise: try stating this without the copula. But no, "is/are" is not multifunctional in the same way that "from" is. If I say "she came from school" it is clear that we're talking about relative motion today or in the recent past from one nearby location to another. If I say "her family came from Japan" it is clear I'm talking about ancestry and/or a long ago emigration, but also spa…

> Exercise: try stating this without the copula.

‘The copula has many uses.’

or:

‘The copula can be used in many different situations.’

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Also, I think you underestimate the amount of variation in other words, e.g.:

> If I say "she came from school" it is clear that we're talking about relative motion today or in the recent past from one nearby location to another.

Not just recent past, but having any time near to the point of reference: ‘When she came from school after the bomb scare…’.

> If I say "her family came from Japan" it is clear I'm talking about ancestry and/or a long ago emigration, but also spatially oriented.

Or they might have arrived yesterday to visit her.

> If I say "the party is from 3pm to 5pm" then I am using "from" to indicate a temporal rather than a spatial motion.

But only because ‘3pm’ and ‘5pm’ themselves have clear temporal reference as opposed to spatial reference. For an ambiguous example, if I say ‘we drove from breakfast to lunch’, that might mean we drove starting at breakfast-time and finishing at lunch-time, or it might mean we started at a location where we had breakfast and drove to a location where we had lunch. (To more fully show that the latter is a valid interpretation, consider ‘we drove from breakfast to breakfast’: it makes no sense if ‘breakfast’ is a time, but it makes sense if treated with the sense of ‘place where we had breakfast’.)

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> The IS-A vs HAS-A relationship is entirely different. It is the difference between existential quantification (some aspect of this thing resembles/has an X) and universal quantification (the entirety of this thing is fully captured by the meaning of X).

This doesn’t sound quite right to me. In my view, both ‘has’ and ‘is’ are basically relationships, rather than quantifiers. Consider a sentence like ‘I have the keys’: this merely states a relationship between two objects, rather than quantifying over any set. A sentence like ‘The morning star is the evening star’ is similar in this regard. It is true that a sentence like ‘I have a key’ has existential meaning — but I suspect the quantification is linked to the indefinite article ‘a’ more than the verb.

> To make this concrete, if I say "he is bad" then it is unclear whether I am saying that person is an intrinsically bad man, or if I am just commenting that the thing that he is doing right now is not morally justified.

This ambiguity isn’t limited to the copula, though. ‘I like him’ has exactly the same kind of ambiguity.

Re: Lojban: Constructed language to eliminate ambiguity from communication

#49
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My email is in my profile. Formal semantics is a broad field full of some very interesting and practical theories, and a lot of quackery. I don't blame you for being skeptical. Specifically though I think that Lucas Champollion has done a great job of marrying Davidsonian event semantics with more modern work on qualifiers and counterfactuals that finally creates--I believe--an universal framework for capturing the f…

> My email is in my profile. OK, I’ll email you if you want to continue this discussion elsewhere. > https://champollion.hosting.nyu.edu Looks interesting… where should I start reading? > If I am correct in this assessment, then the next logical step from a conlang/auxlang perspective is: can we build a direct, unambiguous spoken grammar for this universal semantics framework? If so, then we will have achieved what L…

Oh I'm happy to continue this conversation here, although it's late where I am and I'll be going to bed soon, and HN threads are ephemeral. Feel free to email me if you'd like to actually collaborate on this.

> Looks interesting… where should I start reading?

IIRC he did some graduate summer schools that were recorded online and have attached lecture notes. Those plus the referenced papers would be a good place to start. The one in particular that I'm thinking of is, I believe, the Summer 2014 topic of "Integrating Montague Semantics and Event Semantics." That marriage of Davidsonian and Montague semantics into a single framework is, I believe, a universal theory of semantics. [It should be noted that he makes no such grandiose claims.]

> Personally, I’m not sure if ‘unambiguous meaning’ is possible or even desirable

By 'unambiguous meaning' I mean something more specific than the words alone imply. [I am aware of the irony.]

In computational semantics, the goal is to transform a parsing of a sentence into a logical statement (or in the case of a question, a query) about the world. For example, the sentence "every dog barks" would be translated into a logical statement of the form "for every dog there exists at least one barking event with that dog as the acting subject." Or rather a mathematical statement to that effect that I don't know how to render on HN.

But unfortunately in natural language even when a language is correctly parsed in terms of syntax--which is all Lojban seeks to accomplish--there are still many different possible semantic implications. For example, the sentence "Spot didn't bark" could mean

1. There is no event in which Spot has ever barked, or 2. In the case of a specific event, Spot did not bark.

English doesn't differentiate without clarification, e.g. "Spot never barks" or "Spot didn't bark that time." Lojban has universal and existential quantifiers, but their use is not mandated.

When I say I want unambiguous meaning, I mean something very specific: monoparsing of sentences to logical statements/semantic formalisms. There ought to be a one-to-one mapping between sentences in the language, and logical sentences in this universal formalism. The claims of those sentences could be as broad or narrow as desired, but there shouldn't be any ambiguity about what is being claimed.

Re: Lojban: Constructed language to eliminate ambiguity from communication

#50
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My email is in my profile. OK, I’ll email you if you want to continue this discussion elsewhere. > https://champollion.hosting.nyu.edu Looks interesting… where should I start reading? > If I am correct in this assessment, then the next logical step from a conlang/auxlang perspective is: can we build a direct, unambiguous spoken grammar for this universal semantics framework? If so, then we will have achieved what L…

Oh I'm happy to continue this conversation here, although it's late where I am and I'll be going to bed soon, and HN threads are ephemeral. Feel free to email me if you'd like to actually collaborate on this. > Looks interesting… where should I start reading? IIRC he did some graduate summer schools that were recorded online and have attached lecture notes. Those plus the referenced papers would be a good place to st…

> Feel free to email me if you'd like to actually collaborate on this.

Emailed, though I’m not sure how much time I’d actually have available to collaborate.

> The one in particular that I'm thinking of is, I believe, the Summer 2014 topic of "Integrating Montague Semantics and Event Semantics."

I’ll have a look at it, thanks!

> When I say I want unambiguous meaning, I mean something very specific: monoparsing of sentences to logical statements/semantic formalisms. There ought to be a one-to-one mapping between sentences in the language, and logical sentences in this universal formalism. The claims of those sentences could be as broad or narrow as desired, but there shouldn't be any ambiguity about what is being claimed.

OK, this makes far more sense. I still maintain there will be a lot of ambiguity, purely because the individual words themselves are ambiguous, but it’s an interesting goal nonetheless.

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