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Update of the RDF and SPARQL (RDF star) families of specifications

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Re: Update of the RDF and SPARQL (RDF star) families of specifications

#42
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

RDF is not dependent on XML as a syntax. There's a text-based syntax in common use (Turtle), as well as a separate one based on JSON (JSON-LD).

As well as a nigh tabular form in "N-triples" and "N-quads" https://www.w3.org/TR/n-triples/ https://www.w3.org/TR/n-quads/ which can end up as the easiest formats to work with sometimes. There are tools like 'rapper' and 'serd' to convert to and from the various formats. https://librdf.org/raptor/rapper.html https://drobilla.net/software/serd.html

The problem is that they aren’t tabular and the examples they give which make them look simple are incomplete. For example, they rarely show examples that specify the language or data type. A truly tabular format is hextuples. https://github.com/ontola/hextuples

Re: Update of the RDF and SPARQL (RDF star) families of specifications

#43
I am glad to see this as well. I decided to use RDF for my personal project because it was well specified, has many implementations, and a human readable syntax. In the end, it is just data but I wanted to make it as accessible as possible. Does this mean that RDF is always the right choice? No, but it worked for my use case. I wish there were more choices in the open source Triplestore space with good OWL2 support but my project works with what is out there and if someone wants to transform it into something else, that is entirely possible to do.

If you are interested, my project is here: https://github.com/cyocum/irish-gen and a few posts about it are here https://cyocum.github.io/.

Re: Update of the RDF and SPARQL (RDF star) families of specifications

#44
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm using it in a personal project. I wanted something extensible, and ad hoc, and RDF is certainly that. But it's also typed, which is nice. I can add my own types (I may do that, not sure yet). I am not well versed in the other RDF technologies. I haven't paid any attention to ontologies, or OWL or any of that stuff. I just use raw RDF, and defined my own vocabularies for everything, including structure. For exampl…

Which database do you use to store your RDF data, which supports SPARQL, and how does it perform? > I just use raw RDF, and defined my own vocabularies for everything, including structure. I think this is best approach. The ontology part was more of a hindrance for me way back in 2010's when I was experimenting with semantic web technologies (using dbpedia as a source of my data) and I really hard tried to avoid goin…

I'm using Apache Jena and Java, and using TDB.

Performance? I have nothing to compare it too. I can't complain. I know whenever I saw info about triple stores in the past, they only seem to crow about was how fast it takes to import things. "Eleventy trillion triples per bleem!" I guess nobody ever actually queries the data, they just store it.

I routinely export the model to a file, and that takes seconds (As for queries, well, it either can find it or it can't. It's either trivially indexed (I assume each of the properties of the triple are indexed), or it table scans. Internally when you do a query from Java, you basically set the base net you want to throw (you've only got 3 values to work with) and iterate through to filter it. When I did my "select count" query to count all the triples, that took a beat or two to be sure as it hoovered the entirety of the model and cursored through it. I have not done any crazy SPARQL queries (I can barely spell SPARQL), so I don't know what kind of decisions is makes, but, in the end, there's really only a few ways you can actually query a triple store.

Now, I have a recent Intel iMac I'm running this on, so that may well impact things as well. I have no idea how much memory I'm using, it hasn't been a problem. I've done no tuning whatsoever, I honestly don't know what tuning is available.

I do not foresee my dataset growing much more, so TDB is "fast enough" for my purposes. All told I'm pretty happy with everything.

Re: Update of the RDF and SPARQL (RDF star) families of specifications

#45
post #2

In the nicest possible way, and from a position of ignorance of the "Semantic Web": is anyone actually doing anything with these technologies outside of academia?

Short answer is no. Spent many years (>10) listening to people explain how semantic technologies would transform Academic Publishing and make research more useful. Failure in my opinion because - nobody valued it enough to pay to have it done correctly, academic papers have a shelf life, academic papers often contain inaccurate information. Academics publish because it is required not because they have useful info to…

LLMs and Semantic Web work reasonably well in concert https://friend.computer/jekyll/update/2023/04/30/wikidata-ll...

Re: Update of the RDF and SPARQL (RDF star) families of specifications

#46
post #34
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you’re pying a botique consultancy fat stacks to fix your megaCo’s absolute hairball data integration, the probability of RDF approaches 1 as price goes to ∞. Trivial (as in ‘cat graphx graphy’) merging of complex data graphs is just too powerful.

Not only via botique consultancies. Almost every megaCo has some ontology team working for them. Sadly almost all of them also seem to be stuck into a perpetual conceptual phase with very little actual impact on the business.

Yes, having seen this from both ends the more «sciency» guys at reporting/analytics try to bring SOTA practices to bear before core business realizes a need.

If the need is in fact communicating $100bn design specifications between multiple transnational engineering and construction co’s, even the most grounded and pragmatic engineer will gladly inplement RDF and ontologies in the hot path. It’s the best tool for the job on the merits.

Sometimes they need a little nudge. A python or C# library here or there, just to take the edge off, you know?

Re: Update of the RDF and SPARQL (RDF star) families of specifications

#47
post #32
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it's an early draft. The "quoted triples" technique is otherwise known as "RDF-star" Here's an article that explains the motivations and alternatives pretty comprehensively: https://www.ontotext.com/knowledgehub/fundamentals/what-is-r... . That's one of the reason for having an official 1.2 standard... so all the formats (including Turtle) will incorporate it in a compatible, correct way.

Just tacking it onto an existing standard is not how you get everyone to "incorporate it in a compatible, correct way". If anything, you'll get exactly the opposite, where laymen that try to shove Turtle 1.2 (which they just know as "Turtle") files, into an incompatible Turtle 1.1 parser which claims to be able to parse "Turtle" (which was a true statement until the release of Turtle 1.2), and things explode and head…

Sometimes things work out that way. But a new official version of a W3C spec is not just "tacking it on." If data or software claims to be compliant with some version of the relevant W3C spec, they almost always actually are. And while the W3C specs can be a pain in the ass, it's because they're fairly precise and cover most of the edge cases.

Re: Update of the RDF and SPARQL (RDF star) families of specifications

#48
post #43

I am glad to see this as well. I decided to use RDF for my personal project because it was well specified, has many implementations, and a human readable syntax. In the end, it is just data but I wanted to make it as accessible as possible. Does this mean that RDF is always the right choice? No, but it worked for my use case. I wish there were more choices in the open source Triplestore space with good OWL2 support b…

My impression is that the trade off when choosing RDF vs a property graph when trying to model graph data is between maximal schema flexibility and the ability to infinitely break apart the data model down to the smallest atomic structures because literally everything is a node that is either an IRI(as unique identifier) or a primitive. Vs the convenience of having more complex nodes and edges with some structure built in where you can collapse some fields down and call them properties to describe individual nodes and edges. In RDF you have to create all of that yourself with triples which can lead to some large structures for relatively common tasks like referencing edges and for reification of statements.

Re: Update of the RDF and SPARQL (RDF star) families of specifications

#49
post #38
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

right, but they have a close association as OP says, and RDF is wrongly dismissed for similar reasons as XML (too complex, too much ceremony, too difficult, not enough value)

As somebody who worked with RDF and SPARQL for several years, none of these are actually true - RDF is very simple to work with (especially if you avoid XML stuff), can be operated on by basic string processing tools, and is conceptually pretty simple once you get into the right mindset. I think it's just suffering from bad documentation being overexposed and good examples under-exposed.

I agree, it just has a bad reputation and there’s few obvious and well known success stories

Re: Update of the RDF and SPARQL (RDF star) families of specifications

#50
post #2

In the nicest possible way, and from a position of ignorance of the "Semantic Web": is anyone actually doing anything with these technologies outside of academia?

Defense industry, part of ARTT (Acquisition Requirements for Training Transformation, ), which is an incredibly-overdue-effort to merge specs. It's also being used to draft MBSE schemas for SysML, SysML has undefined overlap with the many many many other architect tools, and it's going to be the main player for MBSE (maybe . . there's some fighting about that).

These so-called "semantic web" technologies seem to come into their own when there's large scale organizations interfacing without a common reference frame. Like one org that does a spec from a programmer standpoint, and another org does one from a formal linguistics standpoint, then they have to integrate. For example, the USDoD Logistics steering group makes a spec for parts data from their requirements based on MTTF, cost, sparing, shelved space. USN makes a spec for parts data based on burn rate, transport, fuel type. It goes on and on like this, repeat a few dozen times, and you have a dump truck full of specs doing the same thing. See where I'm going here? They're speccing out the same thing from their own ivory towers, and - here's the kicker for those trying to LLM their way out of the situation - none of them are going to show their data to anyone else. The only thing that's exposed is the semantics. ARTT/CredEng is - or was, I am not sure if the program OR CredReg is still healthy - trying to solve this by unifying the semantics.

Ultimately someone's got to come along and give all these people a kick in the pants, one way or the other. You can't just float a boat around the ocean with no missiles, not these days.

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