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The American Dream convinces people loneliness is normal

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Re: The American Dream convinces people loneliness is normal

#41

Post by munk-a »

jasmer wrote: post #25
munk-a wrote: post #5

The modern version of the American dream is an extremely toxic ideology. It promotes such an extreme version of individualism that it's threatening to tear apart all the social safety nets still existent in the US while also glorifying excessive wealth hoarding. It is absolutely bonkers that we've gotten to the point where cheating on your taxes can be viewed as a virtue.

I suggest that the 'modern toxic version of the American Dream' is defined mostly by people who want to define it as toxic. So you could say that maybe Zuckerburg represents that, which would make it kind of toxic, but I don't think most Americans would ever think he represents the dream. Though I suppose there are fewer visible local community members who are representative of it as role models.

As someone born in the mid-eighties I'd like to say that your statement probably was pretty accurate in the 70s or 80s - but that by the 90s, and especially by the tech bubble, it went fully mainstream. This cultural identity was definitely embraced and promoted by people for selfish reasons, being able to keep people separated and distrustful prevents union formation and social programs... however it was my impression growing up on the east coast that it's the common opinion now.

We're not getting this message from Marlboro ads or magazine articles alone - your boss, your coworkers, your friends - a decent number of these folks will reinforce the message.

Re: The American Dream convinces people loneliness is normal

#42

Post by sandworm101 »

The American cowboy-hero isn't about the hero being lonely. It as about heroes leaving. Wandering strangers, be them cowboys or Superman, sweep in to fix problems and then go away. They do not integrate into the societies they help. They do not take anything from the people they help. They are therefore not a sociological threat to those they help. American society is very segmented, particularly in the mythic world of "small towns" so idolized in fiction. Outsiders are welcome, just not welcome to stay. The American dream is about stability and property rights. Strangers are a threat. They need to leave at the end of the story.

Re: The American Dream convinces people loneliness is normal

#43

Post by 0xbadcafebee »

Maybe some abstract philosophy from the 19th century isn't the reason that, all of a sudden, people are more lonely and depressed.

The less I engage with America's consumerist mass media society, the less lonely I feel. I felt more lonely when I watched TV, listened to the news, read the paper, scrolled through social media. Everywhere there was a reminder of the life I'm not living, stuff I don't have, other people's lives I'm not a part of, and of course, impending doom.

I disconnected from all of that and moved to the woods. 2 years later, I've never felt less lonely. I am so constantly busy with gardening, composting, cooking, chores, repairs, building things, fishing, hiking, paddling, that I barely have time to watch a show or check my phone. I feel no existential angst, no FOMO. It never crosses my mind that there's something I'm missing out on. I'm busier than I've ever been.

Where others might think about politics, buying a new car, which restaurant to go out to, trying to cancel their gym membership, trying to find someone to go on a date with, or who's party they weren't invited to, my biggest concern is the weather. When it's going to rain, what temperature it is, how much sun there is. I guess mice is another big one; trying to figure out how they're getting into the heating ducts, or how to keep them out of my car. And snails; they're devouring my seedlings. So, weather and pests.

I don't really know what loneliness is now. I can always open a window and listen to the birds, watch them go about their lives. I can even engage with them, feeing them, building them a home, calling them. I can dig up my garden bed to plant something new and see all the activity going on underneath. I can check out the plants and make sure they're healthy. Life is everywhere, and I can engage with all of it, any time.

If I had to engage with humanity all the time, yeah, I'd probably get lonely and depressed. But like those who moved out into the wildnerness of the Old West, I have the luxury of not having to be constantly reminded of humanity. "out of sight, out of mind" is true enlightenment.

Re: The American Dream convinces people loneliness is normal

#44

Post by 1letterunixname »

munk-a wrote: post #5

The modern version of the American dream is an extremely toxic ideology. It promotes such an extreme version of individualism that it's threatening to tear apart all the social safety nets still existent in the US while also glorifying excessive wealth hoarding. It is absolutely bonkers that we've gotten to the point where cheating on your taxes can be viewed as a virtue.

[flagged]

Re: The American Dream convinces people loneliness is normal

#46

Post by eternalban »

Actual source:

https://apnews.com/article/loneliness-lonely-alone-surgeon-g...

Actual author:

https://www.google.com/search?q=TED+ANTHONY

-

This is a strange article. It reads like propaganda designed to demoralize and denigrate.

"“Thus not only does democracy make every man forget his ancestors, but it ... throws him back forever upon himself alone, and threatens in the end to confine him entirely within the solitude of his own heart.”"

&

"In the age before democracy, for better and for worse, “People weren’t lonely. They were tied up in a web of connections. And in many countries that’s more true than it was in the United States,” says Colin Woodard, director of the Nationhood Lab at the Pell Center for International Relations and Public Policy. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Woodard

Now Colin is another author, but just a bit of googling and I'm pretty sure the Associated Press is misusing his words - note Colin actually said in this completely contextless quote "more true than it was in the United States". So apparently the dreaded disease of "democracy" (or wait, I thought it was the "American Dream") had not prevented "communities" in USA. Heck, calling UTAH and the "community" of Mormons, among a large number of such communities in the dreaded US of A. Anyway, maybe someone should ping Colin and ask him: did you really say that Democracy aka "the American Dream" was a cause of breaking of community in the US?

So, dear reader, please note that "American Dream" == "democracy", And that "dream" (abhorant to 'un-lonely' "Old World aristocracies") is the cause of your modern malaise. (Much more correlated with economic regime than political regime, imo.)

Now the question presents itself: Just how did these misguided Americans with their "dream" of "democracy" make it from 19th to 21st century? Apparently we were caught in the spell of "a premise based on myths" and simply didn't realize we got it so wrong! Thank you AP and Ted for clearing this up for us.

Alienation & loneliness are symptoms of modernity, not "individualism". Representative democracy actually promotes creation of elective communities -- note how the designated binary teams of "red" and "blue" factions in US cling to one another .. -- whereas "Old World aristocracies" were communities of blood and soil.

Has AP gone fascist or something?

Re: The American Dream convinces people loneliness is normal

#47

Post by BizarreByte »

taurath wrote: post #37
valianteffort wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Greatest decision I ever made was getting a remote gig, leaving the big city, and moving to a small town. There is enough going on here to keep busy, and everyone knows eachother. Would never dream of raising my kids somewhere like SF. If you want community, go somewhere it's valued. Everyone in the big city is a transient, only there to make money and find love before it's time to head for the suburbs.

This works unless you can't find a large enough group of people that share your goals, values, etc. Those are the people that end up staying in cities regardless, and there are plenty of active communities for those folks.

Those small towns are good if you conform and don't stick out, but it can be really, really hard if you do.

Re: The American Dream convinces people loneliness is normal

#48

Post by flatline »

valianteffort wrote: post #16
tokyolights2 wrote: post #3

I spend so much of my time intentionally trying to cultivate community. In some respects, it is the over-arching theme of my adult life. I find community is very hard to come by so if I have to be the one to make it, so be it. I pay a pretty penny to be a member of a coworking space so I don't spend my workday alone. Three times per week I go to regularly-scheduled events (a game night, running club, and roller-skati…

Greatest decision I ever made was getting a remote gig, leaving the big city, and moving to a small town. There is enough going on here to keep busy, and everyone knows eachother. Would never dream of raising my kids somewhere like SF. If you want community, go somewhere it's valued. Everyone in the big city is a transient, only there to make money and find love before it's time to head for the suburbs.

I live in a mid-sized US city and it’s hell. Seven years in, my friend group is small - but present - and there are very few activities I enjoy. It is a sleepy kind of place. Community here forms in small pockets of people who have known each other their entire lives and are not welcoming to newcomers. I have eyed a move to SF and when I last traveled there my Airbnb host commented, “this is where you come to find community.”

If a smaller town works for you then great, but for most people it’s quite the opposite, or people would not have consistently migrated to cities over the last century. There are real drawbacks to the population density but it affords so many more opportunities for…everything.

Re: The American Dream convinces people loneliness is normal

#49

Post by marssaxman »

valianteffort wrote: post #16
tokyolights2 wrote: post #3

I spend so much of my time intentionally trying to cultivate community. In some respects, it is the over-arching theme of my adult life. I find community is very hard to come by so if I have to be the one to make it, so be it. I pay a pretty penny to be a member of a coworking space so I don't spend my workday alone. Three times per week I go to regularly-scheduled events (a game night, running club, and roller-skati…

Greatest decision I ever made was getting a remote gig, leaving the big city, and moving to a small town. There is enough going on here to keep busy, and everyone knows eachother. Would never dream of raising my kids somewhere like SF. If you want community, go somewhere it's valued. Everyone in the big city is a transient, only there to make money and find love before it's time to head for the suburbs.

Experiences certainly differ! My family recently moved away from a small town, back to the heart of a big coastal city, in part because we were all lonely there; everyone in town may know each other, but the culture there was uncomfortably different from ours, and it was difficult to make friends. We fit in much better in a big cosmopolitan city, and there's so much more to do here - both for us and for our eleven-year old - that it's easier to find ways of spending time with people.

Re: The American Dream convinces people loneliness is normal

#50

Post by granshaw »

valianteffort wrote: post #16
tokyolights2 wrote: post #3

I spend so much of my time intentionally trying to cultivate community. In some respects, it is the over-arching theme of my adult life. I find community is very hard to come by so if I have to be the one to make it, so be it. I pay a pretty penny to be a member of a coworking space so I don't spend my workday alone. Three times per week I go to regularly-scheduled events (a game night, running club, and roller-skati…

Greatest decision I ever made was getting a remote gig, leaving the big city, and moving to a small town. There is enough going on here to keep busy, and everyone knows eachother. Would never dream of raising my kids somewhere like SF. If you want community, go somewhere it's valued. Everyone in the big city is a transient, only there to make money and find love before it's time to head for the suburbs.

> Everyone in the big city is a transient, only there to make money and find love before it's time to head for the suburbs.

Definitely stealing this!

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