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Please do not require AVX support for your software

pavel.network

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Re: Please do not require AVX support for your software

#41

Post by PeterZaitsev »

I think this article gives poor advice. You should provide binaries which provide best experience for magiority of your users. Old CPUs, Old Operating systems become edge cases at certain point which has cost to maintain which should be considered wisely.

It might be good option to provide alternative "legacy" binaries or enable users to compile their own binaries if users like based on project resources

Too many folks in particular in Open Source are very forceful about maintainers meeting their needs but not understanding resources can be limited and if you're sayting yes to something you're sayting no to something else - new features, better quality for majority of users etc.

Re: Please do not require AVX support for your software

#42

Post by cesarb »

LoganDark wrote: post #39
VancouverMan wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't find it surprising at all. Many of my clients and other individuals I know are still using PCs from 2014 or before. Hardware from that era is still very capable, especially for basic office or home usage. Even if those computers originally ran Windows 7, or 8, or 8.1, pretty much all of the ones I'm familiar with have been upgraded to Windows 10 since then. They could probably run Windows 11 just fine, too, i…

I feel like I just don't understand, as someone who has to upgrade hardware every few years just because it breaks. My PC laptop's keyboard is broken, the bottom panel is snapped off, one of the hinge covers is missing, the ethernet port is broken off the motherboard, the charging cable is soldered in place (because the barrel jack kept breaking), the USB-C port is iffy, the fans keep failing, and it took all that to…

> I feel like I just don't understand, as someone who has to upgrade hardware every few years just because it breaks. My PC laptop's keyboard is broken [...]

That's your mistake: you're using a laptop. In my experience, desktops are much more robust than laptops (and they're also more modular, so partial replacement when something breaks is viable); most of these people "using PCs from 2014 or before" are probably using desktops.

> Are people used to waiting for their computers to do things? I can't use slow computers because I heavily depend on multitasking and task switching, but seeing some of the things people put up with—like Firefox taking 15 minutes to load—makes me wonder if everyone else is just okay with having a slow computer.

Yes, they're used to it. You can't stand it because you're used to a faster computer, but those who are used to a slower computer might not even notice it, or they work around it (like going for a coffee while the software starts up).

Re: Please do not require AVX support for your software

#43

Post by johnklos »

Sometimes it's interesting to read the comments on articles like these. Many if not most of the comments which lean towards ignoring support for older or lesser CPUs don't seem to care about much more than sheer popularity, as though something that 90% of the world has should become the de facto standard. That's the same logic that used to be used to rationalize not supporting free Unix / Linux.

Why do people who have money and fancy, sometimes expensive things so often insist on getting even more, when getting more means that those without the means to afford better get less? I suppose we could fix the planet if we could figure out how to deal with this.

So, in a nutshell, I dismiss those who have fancy CPUs and who insist that everyone use AVX, even when it affects those who can't.

Really, though, the answer is quite simple: run-time code paths for various CPU feature sets. This problem would be moot if programmers just programmed and let compilers and assemblers output AVX optimized code for CPUs that have it and regular x86 assembly for those that don't, in the same binary.

Re: Please do not require AVX support for your software

#44

Post by Cold_Miserable »

LoganDark wrote: post #29
rany_ wrote: post #5

If anyone is interested, Intel has its own Linux distribution called Clear Linux which has all optimizations enabled. Of course this has the issue of not running on systems which cannot support all these optimizations, in particular, very few chips have AVX512 unless you have the latest 11th and 12th gen Intel CPUs.

> very few chips have AVX512 unless you have the latest 11th and 12th gen Intel CPUs 12th gen had AVX-512 physically fused off because the E-cores didn't support it.

No. AVX512 was disabled because the money-men want to force you to buy the far more expensive Sapphire-Rapids which are the same chip. Same old Intel. Learned nothing. They didn't just fuse it off, they also forced microcode updates that permanently disable it for working alderlakes.

Re: Please do not require AVX support for your software

#45

Post by JohnFen »

LoganDark wrote: post #31
xet7 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, so MongoDB adds requirement for AVX, and then you blame anyone having non-AVX hardware about laziness? Requiring to buy new hardware to run that software? When there could be possibility to use AVX where feature exists, and not use when it does not exist? Similarly, Win11 adds new requirements for TPM 2.0 etc, so all not having that are blamed about laziness, and required to buy new hardware to run Win11? It's li…

> Similarly, Win11 adds new requirements for TPM 2.0 etc, so all not having that are blamed about laziness, and required to buy new hardware to run Win11? How are people even finding hardware without a TPM? my random ASUS laptop from 2020 had a TPM, and Apple has been adding (custom) TPMs to all their computers since 2016. It's honestly more impressive that there are so many people without TPMs to use.

> How are people even finding hardware without a TPM?

Most of the computers I use don't have TPM. I buy older, used computers, but I think the oldest one I have in every day use is 7 years, so not ancient.

Of my friends, both technical and not, most of them have computers that are older than 4 years.

Re: Please do not require AVX support for your software

#46

Post by JohnFen »

LoganDark wrote: post #39
VancouverMan wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't find it surprising at all. Many of my clients and other individuals I know are still using PCs from 2014 or before. Hardware from that era is still very capable, especially for basic office or home usage. Even if those computers originally ran Windows 7, or 8, or 8.1, pretty much all of the ones I'm familiar with have been upgraded to Windows 10 since then. They could probably run Windows 11 just fine, too, i…

I feel like I just don't understand, as someone who has to upgrade hardware every few years just because it breaks. My PC laptop's keyboard is broken, the bottom panel is snapped off, one of the hinge covers is missing, the ethernet port is broken off the motherboard, the charging cable is soldered in place (because the barrel jack kept breaking), the USB-C port is iffy, the fans keep failing, and it took all that to…

> as someone who has to upgrade hardware every few years just because it breaks.

You do? What are you doing to those poor machines??

> if everyone else is just okay with having a slow computer.

I don't have a good handle on what you consider to be a "slow" machine, but most people that I know aren't really that fussed about having the fastest possible machine.

Re: Please do not require AVX support for your software

#47

Post by JohnFen »

cesarb wrote: post #42
LoganDark wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like I just don't understand, as someone who has to upgrade hardware every few years just because it breaks. My PC laptop's keyboard is broken, the bottom panel is snapped off, one of the hinge covers is missing, the ethernet port is broken off the motherboard, the charging cable is soldered in place (because the barrel jack kept breaking), the USB-C port is iffy, the fans keep failing, and it took all that to…

> I feel like I just don't understand, as someone who has to upgrade hardware every few years just because it breaks. My PC laptop's keyboard is broken [...] That's your mistake: you're using a laptop. In my experience, desktops are much more robust than laptops (and they're also more modular, so partial replacement when something breaks is viable); most of these people "using PCs from 2014 or before" are probably us…

> That's your mistake: you're using a laptop.

Even so -- I just replaced the cheap laptop I was using as my main driver because it was starting to get a little flaky. It was 10 years old.

Re: Please do not require AVX support for your software

#48

Post by JohnFen »

LoganDark wrote: post #35
zbrozek wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The desktop computer I've been using since 2015 doesn't have a TPM and is still plenty fast for my needs. And probably lots of machines a fair bit newer don't have them either. Hardware from 2020 is very new. Luckily, I have no desire to run Windows 11.

> The desktop computer I've been using since 2015 doesn't have a TPM Yeah but it's from 2015. Windows 11 is from, like, 2021. That's over 6 years before the OS started asking for something you don't have. I think this is why people cry laziness, because it does legitimately sound that way from an outside perspective.

That doesn't sound lazy. That sounds like not wanting to replace perfectly good equipment.

Re: Please do not require AVX support for your software

#49

Post by LoganDark »

JohnFen wrote: post #46
LoganDark wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like I just don't understand, as someone who has to upgrade hardware every few years just because it breaks. My PC laptop's keyboard is broken, the bottom panel is snapped off, one of the hinge covers is missing, the ethernet port is broken off the motherboard, the charging cable is soldered in place (because the barrel jack kept breaking), the USB-C port is iffy, the fans keep failing, and it took all that to…

> as someone who has to upgrade hardware every few years just because it breaks. You do? What are you doing to those poor machines?? > if everyone else is just okay with having a slow computer. I don't have a good handle on what you consider to be a "slow" machine, but most people that I know aren't really that fussed about having the fastest possible machine.

> You do? What are you doing to those poor machines??

I... legitimately have no freaking idea. I do nothing to the machine, the fan bearings start to fail. I open the screen too many times, the bezel starts popping off and the hinge cover breaks due to that. And the ethernet cable was always loose in the port and trying to fix it eventually resulted in the port snapping off. And the charger barrel is so cheap that the metal coating scrapes right off the moment it ever rotates, causing it to stop being conductive. I think the main thing that was actually my fault was the keyboard because I think I drove a screw into the PCB and cracked it during one of my repairs (you have to remove the entire heatsink assembly and repaste the entire machine in order to get at the fans).

> I don't have a good handle on what you consider to be a "slow" machine, but most people that I know aren't really that fussed about having the fastest possible machine.

I started considering my laptop slow when it started taking a couple seconds to alt+tab. Sometimes it would even skip as if I pressed Tab twice when I really didn't. That kinda stuff annoys me so much because I need to be able to switch tasks really quickly. But I don't know if that's how decade-old machines really perform, which is why I just said "slow computer".

I guess by "slow" I really meant "unresponsive" where it doesn't react quickly to your inputs. That's what would annoy me the most from a computer.

Re: Please do not require AVX support for your software

#50

Post by LoganDark »

cesarb wrote: post #42
LoganDark wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like I just don't understand, as someone who has to upgrade hardware every few years just because it breaks. My PC laptop's keyboard is broken, the bottom panel is snapped off, one of the hinge covers is missing, the ethernet port is broken off the motherboard, the charging cable is soldered in place (because the barrel jack kept breaking), the USB-C port is iffy, the fans keep failing, and it took all that to…

> I feel like I just don't understand, as someone who has to upgrade hardware every few years just because it breaks. My PC laptop's keyboard is broken [...] That's your mistake: you're using a laptop. In my experience, desktops are much more robust than laptops (and they're also more modular, so partial replacement when something breaks is viable); most of these people "using PCs from 2014 or before" are probably us…

> That's your mistake: you're using a laptop.

Not anymore. I've replaced my laptop with a desktop.

But yes. My mistake was indeed thinking that a Windows laptop could fill the void of a broken MacBook Pro. Build quality simply does not exist. The MacBook lasted over 5 years before it had a random logic board crap-out (unknown whether it was my fault or not).

> most of these people "using PCs from 2014 or before" are probably using desktops.

Yep.

> Yes, they're used to it. You can't stand it because you're used to a faster computer, but those who are used to a slower computer might not even notice it, or they work around it (like going for a coffee while the software starts up).

Valid argument, honestly.

I've experienced this with monitors: before my MacBook I could use a regular old 1080p monitor and not have any issues whatsoever, but now trying to use the same exact 1080p monitor today is extremely painful, and my minimum requirement is 4k.

And because my computers have been so fast, I'm used to being able to use alt+tab instead of having multiple windows on-screen, I'm used to being able to augment every conversation with quick Google searches, and so on. My workflow wouldn't work on a slow computer, because my workflow is efficient and demands interactivity.

But I guess if people are just OK with their computer being slow, there's no reason to upgrade just because it's getting out of date. And I guess if software requirements are the only reason people are being forced to upgrade, software requirements are what people are going to get upset with.

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