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U.S. Marshals Spied on Abortion Protesters Using Dataminr

theintercept.com

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Re: U.S. Marshals Spied on Abortion Protesters Using Dataminr

#41

Post by amalcon »

landemva wrote: post #9

From the article, "the agency had cast such a broad surveillance net that large volumes of innocuous First Amendment-protected activity regularly got swept up as potential security threats." This is funded by unlimited federal deficit spending. Let's reduce their budgets.

Saying that the government is spending too much money is such a triviality. The facts are that there is no serious appetite in U.S. politics today to reduce law enforcement budgets[0], and that reducing the budget of the U.S. Marshals would be unlikely to stop them from using these tools (which they see as a less expensive way to accomplish their objectives).

If you want to stop this kind of surveillance, your best bet is to advocate that it be illegal, with accountability. You can also advocate for a reduced budget, but it's not going to get you very far. If anything, it would tend to lead to more use of this kind of tool.

[0]- There are some agitators on the fringes of both parties for specific reductions to parts of law enforcement that those agitators have a problem with. Whether correct or not, the fact is that these are two disjoint proposals from elements that have no interest in compromising with each other. Neither proposal covers the U.S. Marshals, and neither is going to amount to anything at the federal level.

Re: U.S. Marshals Spied on Abortion Protesters Using Dataminr

#42

Post by dahfizz »

Scoundreller wrote: post #28
jonhohle wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was going through the white house proposed budget this weekend and there are more than a few call outs (10-20%) that seem superfluous or like they should be handled by private industries as they seem constrained to benefit those private businesses. Government money also tends to raise all ships^H^H^H^H^Hprices, so many of the social welfare programs - tuition and home buying loans and assistance, for example - have…

> As someone on the hook for $116k in deficit, I’d be much happier to direct my tax dollars to eliminating debt and interest payments Our tax returns have a field at the bottom where you can offer to do just that with your tax refund. I suspect it costs them more in ink than the value of any takers. Always seemed like a “nonono, I didn’t mean to pay down the debt with my money!” kinda thing. “Ontario opportunities fu…

The government is already wasting half my paycheck, I'm not going to donate more money and hope its spent wisely.

The issue is an inability to budget. If we doubled tax revenue, we would double spending and increase the deficit further.

Re: U.S. Marshals Spied on Abortion Protesters Using Dataminr

#43

Post by amalcon »

siftrics wrote: post #39
Scoundreller wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As someone on the hook for $116k in deficit, I’d be much happier to direct my tax dollars to eliminating debt and interest payments Our tax returns have a field at the bottom where you can offer to do just that with your tax refund. I suspect it costs them more in ink than the value of any takers. Always seemed like a “nonono, I didn’t mean to pay down the debt with my money!” kinda thing. “Ontario opportunities fu…

In the US, you can give extra money to reduce the deficit. You cannot redirect what you already owe so that it all goes towards reducing the deficit. So I think your point "nonono, I didn’t mean to pay down the debt with my money!" is moot.

That sort of direction wouldn't be meaningful anyway, since money is fungible.

Re: U.S. Marshals Spied on Abortion Protesters Using Dataminr

#44

Post by cronix »

CoastalCoder wrote: post #7

This discussion might benefit from distinguishing several issues: (1) the propriety of protesting abortions at all (2) the propriety of protesting anything in a manner that seems to threaten violence (3) the government's use of Dataminr

Is "seems to" a legal term? That's a pretty wide open subjective gap there. One that "seems to" sound good, but is actually all inclusive depending on who's interpreting it.

Re: U.S. Marshals Spied on Abortion Protesters Using Dataminr

#45

Post by Dig1t »

So many people are okay with unconstitutional things as long as it supports their side and beliefs.

It is genuinely unsettling. Personally, I don’t care about the underlying thing the protests are about, the important aspect is that if you allow unconstitutional government action like this, eventually it will be used against you. A decade from now we have no idea what the political climate will be. If the precedent is allowed to be set, there’s a good chance the power will be used against your cause in the future.

Re: U.S. Marshals Spied on Abortion Protesters Using Dataminr

#46

Post by vkou »

Dig1t wrote: post #45

So many people are okay with unconstitutional things as long as it supports their side and beliefs. It is genuinely unsettling. Personally, I don’t care about the underlying thing the protests are about, the important aspect is that if you allow unconstitutional government action like this, eventually it will be used against you. A decade from now we have no idea what the political climate will be. If the precedent i…

I don't think my political enemies need any kind of precedent to piss on my rights. If one doesn't exist before they take power, they'll happily establish it.

Re: U.S. Marshals Spied on Abortion Protesters Using Dataminr

#47

Post by the_optimist »

dopamean wrote: post #26
NoZebra120vClip wrote: post #21

[flagged]

lol call it what you want. protest takes form in many ways whether it's a march in the street, a prayer in a park, or simply sitting at a diner counter. and i agree that there is a big difference between anti abortion protesters and and pro choice people. one of them has a history of murdering doctors. murders generally attract the attention of law enforcement.

This conversation is not around murder, or data on murder, or pre-crime. It’s a very poor point. I struggle with how to incorporate partisanship into the dialogue. On one hand, it’s potentially useful for achieving reform. On the other, I expect that you’d be content to establish unfair policies that resulted in actual harm based on mere disagreement. The sense of justice is perverted. But sure, come on in and oppose surveillance and promote a broad definition of protest.

Re: U.S. Marshals Spied on Abortion Protesters Using Dataminr

#48

Post by nsxwolf »

trasz4 wrote: post #37
rayiner wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

>Abortion is considered immoral Not praying as often as one should is considered immoral too. But "immorality" is not binary, and abortion tends to be quite low on the scale. Especially early abortion, which is specific to one particular branch of Christianity. >Abortion “rights” arises from a belief system The same one that got us other human rights, like freedom of speech. It's called humanism. It's different from…

You have an inalienable right to express any view on abortion in the US, regardless of merit.

Re: U.S. Marshals Spied on Abortion Protesters Using Dataminr

#49

Post by landemva »

amalcon wrote: post #41
landemva wrote: post #9

From the article, "the agency had cast such a broad surveillance net that large volumes of innocuous First Amendment-protected activity regularly got swept up as potential security threats." This is funded by unlimited federal deficit spending. Let's reduce their budgets.

Saying that the government is spending too much money is such a triviality. The facts are that there is no serious appetite in U.S. politics today to reduce law enforcement budgets[0], and that reducing the budget of the U.S. Marshals would be unlikely to stop them from using these tools (which they see as a less expensive way to accomplish their objectives). If you want to stop this kind of surveillance, your best b…

> advocate that it be illegal, with accountability

I am interested in how that would work on an individual basis, as feds have to agree to be sued and lawsuits typically need to show specific harm. USSC doctrine of qualified immunity knee-caps accountability.

Re: U.S. Marshals Spied on Abortion Protesters Using Dataminr

#50

Post by trasz4 »

nsxwolf wrote: post #48
trasz4 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Abortion is considered immoral Not praying as often as one should is considered immoral too. But "immorality" is not binary, and abortion tends to be quite low on the scale. Especially early abortion, which is specific to one particular branch of Christianity. >Abortion “rights” arises from a belief system The same one that got us other human rights, like freedom of speech. It's called humanism. It's different from…

You have an inalienable right to express any view on abortion in the US, regardless of merit.

You have an inalienable right to express any view on flat earth in the US. But it doesn't matter if the state law is enforcing religious rules, like in the case of abortion ban.
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