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How we hack Hacker News and consistently hit the front page

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Re: How we hack Hacker News and consistently hit the front page

#41

> You can post multiple times: HN understands that quality posts can go unnoticed, ... Yes, anecdata: A number of my own highest-quality finds have sink with barely a ripple on the "new" page. > ... so you can try the same post again. Don’t overdo it. I would say max 2 or 3 times. Most legit posters have better uses for their remaining lifetime minutes of brain activity than to game HN in such a tedious exercise. Var…

What are some of the high-quality finds that sank without a trace?

Maybe we could send repost invites to put them in the second-chance pool! (https://news.ycombinator.com/pool, explained at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26998308)

Re: How we hack Hacker News and consistently hit the front page

#44
post #19
post #3

Vouched for and upvoted because I think it's important for readers here to see how much effort goes into creating posts that game the system. I think it's better for these strategies to be known than hidden. It will be interesting to see how tactics like this one evolve as ChatGPT use becomes more widespread. There's a definite tension between the rule of not accusing other users of being shills and the reality that…

the rule against calling other people shills is the worst part of hackernews. Skepticism is important, and important to share. I have never been anything but grateful to read a comment pointing out that another comment was obviously a shill. Perhaps I have been embarrassed for not seeing the obvious truth, but always grateful.

There's no such thing as "obviously a shill"—I can tell you from years of experience that the vast majority of such accusations crumble instantly on investigation. Commenters are far too quick to hurl them at other commenters.

There seems to be a cognitive bias where one's feeling of good faith decreases as the distance between someone else's opinion and one's own increases [1]. If so, then everyone has a "shill threshold": the amount of difference-of-opinion past which you will feel like the other person can't possibly be speaking honestly. When someone's posts exceed my shill threshold, I will feel that there must be some sinister reason why they're posting like that (they're a shill, they're an astroturfer, they're a foreign psy-op, you name it).

The important thing to realize is that this shill threshold is relative to the perceiver. It's the limit of your comfort zone, not a property of someone else's posts—no matter how objective the perception feels. It always feels objective—that's how we get phrases like "obviously a shill". (This also explains why people, even people who would agree with a statement like "this site is full of obvious shills", can never agree on exactly which posts are "obvious shills": it depends on your own views, and those differ.)

A forum like HN includes so many people, with such different views and backgrounds, that there is a constant stream of posts triggering somebody's shill threshold or other, purely because their views are sufficiently different. Thus the threads are guaranteed to fill up with accusations of abuse, even in the absence of any actual abuse.

[1] I bet it's nonlinear. Quadratic feels about right.

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At the same time, real manipulation and abuse also exist, so there are two distinct phenomena: there's Phenomenon A, the cognitive bias I just described, and then there's Phenomenon B: actual abuse, real shillage, astroturfing, etc. These are completely different from each other, despite how similar they feel. (The fact that they feel so similar is the cognitive bias.)

Phenomenon A generates overwhelmingly more comments than Phenomenon B—way more than 99%—and those comments are poison. They turn into flamewars, evoking worse from others (who feel unjustly accused and therefore within their rights to strike back even harder), and destroy what we're trying for in this community.

What's the solution? We can't allow Phenomenon A (imaginary perceptions of abuse) to destroy HN, and we also can't allow Phenomenon B (actual abuse, perceived or not) to destroy HN.

Our solution is to forbid users to accuse each other in the threads (because we know that such accusations are usually false and poison the forum), but to welcome reports of possible abuse through a different channel (hn@ycombinator.com). This takes care of both Phenomenon A (you can't post like that here!) and Phenomenon B (we investigate such reports and crack down on real abuse when we find it).

To fight actual abuse (Phenomenon B), we need evidence—something objective to go on (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... ). It can't just be the feeling of "obviously a shill", which we know to be unreliable. And it can't just be people having vastly different views. Someone having a different opinion is not evidence of abuse, it's just evidence that the forum is big and diverse enough to include a wide range of opinions.

We need to find some trace of evidence in data that we can look at. Some data is public (e.g. comment histories), other data is not (e.g. voting histories and site access patterns). We have a lot of experience doing this and we're happy to look when people email us with their suspicions—partly because fighting abuse is one of our most important functions as site managers, and partly because we owe it to users in exchange for their (hopefully) not slinging such accusations in the threads.

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(There's also the question: what about real abuse that we can't find traces of in the data? Obviously there must be some of that and we don't know how much. I call this the Sufficiently Smart Manipulator problem. I've written about that in various places - e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27398725, and more via https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que..., if anybody wants it.)

Re: How we hack Hacker News and consistently hit the front page

#46

While reading, I kept asking myself why someone would care about getting to the front page of HN (saving up this fake points to get something good?) until I reached: > Step 3: The secret sauce We always end with a section that is called: Final thoughts. This is your moment to shine and drop a punchline that talks about your product/service. And, there it is.

This isn't exactly a secret. Everyone who puts their own content on HN is hoping to get something from it, including companies who often put out high-value content (fly.io comes to mind).

Re: How we hack Hacker News and consistently hit the front page

#47

While reading, I kept asking myself why someone would care about getting to the front page of HN (saving up this fake points to get something good?) until I reached: > Step 3: The secret sauce We always end with a section that is called: Final thoughts. This is your moment to shine and drop a punchline that talks about your product/service. And, there it is.

I'm a blogger, and I often want to get on the front page of HN, even for posts that are not shilling anything.

It helps get my name in front of people (since my username is my real, legal name).

This is a long-term strategy; I am building a business, and the more people that know my name when I start announcing things, the better.

Yeah, I have an ulterior motive too, but I'm okay with it if that motive drives me to do actually good things.

Re: How we hack Hacker News and consistently hit the front page

#48
post #17
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a silent part of that rule: if you suspect a shill, gather the evidence and present it to dang via email.

Yes please. Edit: actually not so silent - it's the latter part of this guideline from https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html : " Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, bots, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data. " It's part of the contract we have with…

How long do shill posts last before they've been taken care of?

Re: How we hack Hacker News and consistently hit the front page

#49
post #16
post #4

(Yes, I acknowledge that this stuff is hard, and that a lot of effort is going into it.) It feels like HN moderation is mostly focused on getting the comments interesting, not about getting the stories interesting. HN needs to step up its game here, IMO. There's way too much gamed crap reaching the front page. It seems especially bad during European office hours when the Californians are asleep.

What are some examples of posts that looked like gamed crap to you? I wouldn't say moderation is more focused on interesting comments than interesting stories - at least not consciously or intentionally.

I'll try to make a list over the coming week or so and email you.

Re: How we hack Hacker News and consistently hit the front page

#50
Good read. I would love if they'd taken the next step and told us how the extra traffic and SEO links had helped the business. I mean, that's the ultimate goal, and Hacker News doesn't pay the bills: https://www.reifyworks.com/writing/2017-03-13-hacker-news-do...

The tl;dr of the article is: provide value to the HN audience by highlighting articles of interest, possibly adding some extra commentary, and you'll get karma points. No gaming, no telling folks "vote for my post".

Kinda seems like the system is working!

From my perspective, I do post self-promotional links, but keep them to 5-10% of my posts (don't really keep track, that's more of a 'look at the last 30 posts and see if I have 2-3 self-posts'). Keep the self-promotional stuff quality, and you have to share other posts too. (I got a warning when I posted less than high-quality links and took it to heart. The mods are definitely watching.)

In fact, one of my joys is finding an interesting article from someone else and having it 'hit' on HN. It's such a gift to all the writers out there who are screaming into the void.

It doesn't always lead to something, but it sure is fun to have folks reach out and thank me for the HN spike. Plus the HN crowd gets exposed to the quality ideas.

As I said, the system is working.

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