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Bitcoin physical bearer instrument using NFC JavaCards

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Re: Bitcoin physical bearer instrument using NFC JavaCards

#41

Post by csomar »

arcticbull wrote: post #12
V__ wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not going to argue against some benefits' crypto can have. Especially with the under banked. But it had over a decade to improve society and so far the main use case is: Trick people with tech-bro talk and then scam them.

> I'm not going to argue against some benefits' crypto can have. Especially with the under banked. The under-banked don't have bank accounts because they don't have money. Nobody with money has trouble accessing a bank account. There's tons of online-only bank accounts you can open, often with no fees and zero or limited minimum balance requirements. Ally or Schwab in the US. Internationally, there's Wise, and all so…

This is a comment that says "I have no idea about the struggle of 4Bn+ people around the world when it comes to payments and banking, so I am just going to dismiss all these people as non-existent and argue that everything is fine here in the West".

Re: Bitcoin physical bearer instrument using NFC JavaCards

#43

Post by tsukikage »

tastyfreeze wrote: post #7
CrampusDestrus wrote: post #2

We could print pieces of folded paper containing wallets with a standard amount of satoshi and.... wooops, we just invented cash again

Not the same. A paper wallet has actual value like a metal coin. Now if the paper wallet could not be redeemed for sats you have a pretty piece of paper like cash.

> as actual value like a metal coin

...you mean, the way you can melt a coin down for its metal value? You can use the paper for its value as... paper?

I'm not convinced "you can wipe your butt with it" makes a good case for its value, tbh

Re: Bitcoin physical bearer instrument using NFC JavaCards

#44

Post by Spivak »

brianf0 wrote: post #20
lobstrosity420 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it’s the same thing as government issued currency the moment you put it in paper. A corollary is that digital dollars on your banking app is just like crypto.

Not the same, BTC can't be created / devalued at will.

Yeah, I prefer my currency to be valued by Twitter hype.

Re: Bitcoin physical bearer instrument using NFC JavaCards

#45

Post by CrampusDestrus »

brianf0 wrote: post #5
CrampusDestrus wrote: post #2

We could print pieces of folded paper containing wallets with a standard amount of satoshi and.... wooops, we just invented cash again

This is reductive. It may bear some resemblance to cash but it's more like a voucher, and the actual value is transferred on an immutable ledger. Wish Hacker News wasn't so curmudgeonly about crypto and actually tried to imagine the multitude of ways it would improve society if adopted.

>it's more like a voucher, and the actual value is transferred on an immutable ledger.

a dollar is a voucher for the US economy and the actual value was transferred on an immutable ledger, i.e. append-only physical reality of the universe

Re: Bitcoin physical bearer instrument using NFC JavaCards

#46

Post by arcticbull »

csomar wrote: post #41
arcticbull wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not going to argue against some benefits' crypto can have. Especially with the under banked. The under-banked don't have bank accounts because they don't have money. Nobody with money has trouble accessing a bank account. There's tons of online-only bank accounts you can open, often with no fees and zero or limited minimum balance requirements. Ally or Schwab in the US. Internationally, there's Wise, and all so…

This is a comment that says "I have no idea about the struggle of 4Bn+ people around the world when it comes to payments and banking, so I am just going to dismiss all these people as non-existent and argue that everything is fine here in the West".

Ah yes my favorite counter-argument: check your privilege.

The GDP per capita of Burundi is $221. A couple years ago a single Bitcoin transaction cost $60. The thermodynamics of these kinds of systems make them dramatically more expensive than classical finance because you have to replicate the data so many times. The only reason a Bitcoin payment doesn't cost significantly more than that is nobody's using it, lol.

It's slow, it's inefficient, and worse yet, there's no authority to help try and stabilize the currency. The worst off are hurt the most by wild volatility swings, and crypto is volatility incarnate. The promise that volatility would decrease as a function of market cap simply did not materialize.

Enough with the silly privilege arguments, let's stick to facts.

I specifically called out M-PESA because it's a regional solution to an actual problem they have. [1] And not a blockchain in sight.

[1] https://www.vodafone.com/about-vodafone/what-we-do/consumer-...

Re: Bitcoin physical bearer instrument using NFC JavaCards

#47

Post by mbesto »

brianf0 wrote: post #5
CrampusDestrus wrote: post #2

We could print pieces of folded paper containing wallets with a standard amount of satoshi and.... wooops, we just invented cash again

This is reductive. It may bear some resemblance to cash but it's more like a voucher, and the actual value is transferred on an immutable ledger. Wish Hacker News wasn't so curmudgeonly about crypto and actually tried to imagine the multitude of ways it would improve society if adopted.

> but it's more like a voucher

Vouchers already exist - they're called cashier checks.

> transferred on an immutable ledger.

Which isn't universally a good thing. If someone steals your voucher, there is no recourse. If someone steals a cashier's check, I can call the bank (and sovereign authorities).

Said differently, one is not equivocally better than the other. There's a tradeoff.

> Wish Hacker News wasn't so curmudgeonly about crypto and actually tried to imagine the multitude of ways it would improve society if adopted.

I wish crypto advocates would stop being such apologists on HN. It's not productive. Make your statement, explain your rationale and defend your position.

Re: Bitcoin physical bearer instrument using NFC JavaCards

#48

Post by eimrine »

mjburgess wrote: post #17
V__ wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not going to argue against some benefits' crypto can have. Especially with the under banked. But it had over a decade to improve society and so far the main use case is: Trick people with tech-bro talk and then scam them.

Sorry, but can we just stop repeating the wildly unevidenced claims of the gullible and frauds? Who are the 'underbanked' ? What are their needs? What are the current solutions? There is nothing "there" in crypto. It's a scam. Go and obtain every textbook you can on amazon about blockchains, bitcoin, crypto systems etc. and investigate their authors. I've just done that: they're all part of various crypto schemes. Th…

I downvoted because you are telling too loud worlds: you claim to read all the books, investigated all its authors, realized all of them has some crooked interest and especially because you fail to see any problem solved. You are such a liar.

Re: Bitcoin physical bearer instrument using NFC JavaCards

#49

Post by overthrow »

arcticbull wrote: post #12
V__ wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not going to argue against some benefits' crypto can have. Especially with the under banked. But it had over a decade to improve society and so far the main use case is: Trick people with tech-bro talk and then scam them.

> I'm not going to argue against some benefits' crypto can have. Especially with the under banked. The under-banked don't have bank accounts because they don't have money. Nobody with money has trouble accessing a bank account. There's tons of online-only bank accounts you can open, often with no fees and zero or limited minimum balance requirements. Ally or Schwab in the US. Internationally, there's Wise, and all so…

Under-banked does not mean they have no money. They obviously have some money or they would starve. Many live paycheck-to-paycheck and give 3% of their wages to a check cashing service. If it were as easy as you seem to think for them to get a bank account, those check cashing businesses all around the country would not exist.

Re: Bitcoin physical bearer instrument using NFC JavaCards

#50

Post by arcticbull »

overthrow wrote: post #49
arcticbull wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not going to argue against some benefits' crypto can have. Especially with the under banked. The under-banked don't have bank accounts because they don't have money. Nobody with money has trouble accessing a bank account. There's tons of online-only bank accounts you can open, often with no fees and zero or limited minimum balance requirements. Ally or Schwab in the US. Internationally, there's Wise, and all so…

Under-banked does not mean they have no money. They obviously have some money or they would starve. Many live paycheck-to-paycheck and give 3% of their wages to a check cashing service. If it were as easy as you seem to think for them to get a bank account, those check cashing businesses all around the country would not exist.

Indeed the problem is they don't have enough money. Regardless this is a problem for congress. If we're sure they have enough money, this has historically been solved with postal banking. Let's just re-start that. [1]

Check cashing isn't just about cashing the check, it's a predatory short-term lending facility. Actually cashing a check is a solved problem.

And again, not addressed by crypto.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Postal_Savings_S...

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