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How much of Settlers of Catan is Luck?

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Re: How much of Settlers of Catan is Luck?

#41

Post by gte910h »

mtm wrote: post #35
biot wrote: post #12

Meta-question: board games like chess and go are entirely based upon skill, but are there board games similar to Monopoly or Catan where you have the board, pieces, cards that grant abilities, etc. which are based entirely upon skill? You'd have to eliminate dice entirely and make movement solely the choice of the player, within a defined set of rules. Cards wouldn't come up randomly but would be earned based on obje…

The closest one I've run into is Agricola: it's almost pure skill ('almost' because there is an optional set of 'occupation' cards that get randomly distributed at the beginning of the game). The theme is building out the best farm by the end of a set number of turns. The main thrust of the game is for players to take turns choosing actions from a limited common pool that is reset at the beginning of each turn. One o…

If you like Agricola, try La Havre. Same guy, better game, similar amounts of luck. http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/35677/le-havre

Re: How much of Settlers of Catan is Luck?

#42

Post by gte910h »

starwed wrote: post #14
markyc wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

apart from chess, I don't know of other games based entirely upon skill :)

Chess/Go/Checkers are one category of game where luck plays no part, but not the only one. The thing they all have in common are 2 players and perfect information. Then there are games like Stratego, which have no 'luck' but require you to make decisions based on imperfect information. And games like Diplomacy, with no random element but a social dynamic. I'd assert that this game has no 'luck', but someone else up t…

It has uncertainty, which comes out the same as luck to most players.

Re: How much of Settlers of Catan is Luck?

#43

Post by gte910h »

If you like Catan, try these games:

http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/35677/le-havre http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/43111/chaos-in-the-old-wo... http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/68448/7-wonders http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/34635/stone-age Yspahan http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/22345/yspahan <= point scoring game about running shops in an "idealized" arabian bazar.

Re: How much of Settlers of Catan is Luck?

#44

Post by biot »

gte910h wrote: post #39
biot wrote: post #12

Meta-question: board games like chess and go are entirely based upon skill, but are there board games similar to Monopoly or Catan where you have the board, pieces, cards that grant abilities, etc. which are based entirely upon skill? You'd have to eliminate dice entirely and make movement solely the choice of the player, within a defined set of rules. Cards wouldn't come up randomly but would be earned based on obje…

You've hit my hobby (but I dislike the games you're talking about). I'd contend chess's outcome is based purely on the decisions of the players, but there are often close calls in that game as well, which it is reasonable your opponent will zig or zag, etc, where your chances of winning come up entirely on if you happened to believe if he was zigging or zagging and did moves to counter zigging or zagging appropriatel…

When I said "like Monopoly or Catan" I wasn't looking for games similar to them in style or gameplay -- I meant like them in the sense that they have features such as cards and other additional game elements beyond just the board and playing pieces.

Come to think of it, Battleship is purely skill based though it's quite simplistic in that, like chess, it only has a board and pieces.

Thanks for the list. I'll check them out.

Re: How much of Settlers of Catan is Luck?

#45

Post by gte910h »

biot wrote: post #44
gte910h wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've hit my hobby (but I dislike the games you're talking about). I'd contend chess's outcome is based purely on the decisions of the players, but there are often close calls in that game as well, which it is reasonable your opponent will zig or zag, etc, where your chances of winning come up entirely on if you happened to believe if he was zigging or zagging and did moves to counter zigging or zagging appropriatel…

When I said "like Monopoly or Catan" I wasn't looking for games similar to them in style or gameplay -- I meant like them in the sense that they have features such as cards and other additional game elements beyond just the board and playing pieces. Come to think of it, Battleship is purely skill based though it's quite simplistic in that, like chess, it only has a board and pieces. Thanks for the list. I'll check th…

I wasn't intentionally presenting ones similar in style or play, just in amounts of uncertainty.

Re: How much of Settlers of Catan is Luck?

#46

Post by SomeCallMeTim »

anthonyb wrote: post #32
SomeCallMeTim wrote: post #25

What bugs me about Settlers isn't that it's got too much luck, it's that I can pretty much tell who is going to win (or at least one of two) based on the initial settlement placement. Or at least who's going to lose. And it's pretty much completely no fun to play a game where the result is preordained that you'll lose. Speaking of settlement placement: There aren't enough rolls in a game of Catan for the distribution…

I find that it's not so much a balanced distribution of numbers, but that you don't have to cash in 4 for 1 for a resource that you need. Also, you don't need a deck of dice - just draw on an old pack of cards with a permanent marker :)

Ports are good, sure. I'm not saying it's the ONLY strategy. Just that it's a major bit of strategy that happens before the game even starts. You can certainly choose a spot near a port at the start, though I wouldn't recommend putting an initial settlement on a port. You need the most resource production you can manage early on.

Already got the deck of dice. I don't actually have any extra old packs of cards -- I have a couple, but I'm not a big card game player. Well, I used to play Magic, but writing on Magic cards just seems wrong. ;)

Re: How much of Settlers of Catan is Luck?

#47

Post by Tossrock »

gte910h wrote: post #38
Tossrock wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you explain how 5 card draw is more skill based than Hold 'em? This is not in a combative tone, I really want to know.

Starting hand strengths are MUCH further apart in holdem and 5CD. You can start with the nuts (Straight flush to the Ace) in 5CD, but in holdem, AA is only about 450:1 better than a random disconnected offsuit (2s 8h). Tight play is overwhelmingly rewarded (you can start with a hand thousands of times better than your opponent). So in a 5CD game against bad players, the good players fold repeatedly until they get a s…

I guess I don't see how that's more skill based. In fact it seems more luck based to me – your play is dictated more by literal luck of the draw than by your skill level. You could be the best player in the world, and if you are continuously dealt trash, lose. In Hold 'em, the skills of bluffing and reading are much more important than the luck of your hole cards.

Re: How much of Settlers of Catan is Luck?

#48

Post by [deleted] »

Tossrock wrote: post #47
gte910h wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Starting hand strengths are MUCH further apart in holdem and 5CD. You can start with the nuts (Straight flush to the Ace) in 5CD, but in holdem, AA is only about 450:1 better than a random disconnected offsuit (2s 8h). Tight play is overwhelmingly rewarded (you can start with a hand thousands of times better than your opponent). So in a 5CD game against bad players, the good players fold repeatedly until they get a s…

I guess I don't see how that's more skill based. In fact it seems more luck based to me – your play is dictated more by literal luck of the draw than by your skill level. You could be the best player in the world, and if you are continuously dealt trash, lose. In Hold 'em, the skills of bluffing and reading are much more important than the luck of your hole cards.

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