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Brazil judge orders temporary suspension of Telegram

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Re: Brazil judge orders temporary suspension of Telegram

#41

Post by matheusmoreira »

schoen wrote: post #32

This has happened several times before with other services: https://bloqueios.info/en/timeline/ Unfortunately this site hasn't been updated since 2016, but I don't think that's because these kinds of orders have stopped being issued. They've previously been issued on various occasions by a state judge when a company either ignores or says it can't technically comply with a subpoena or injunction in a court case, and…

This time the DNS block was ordered directly by a supreme court judge. No one can overturn that. Also, the political scenario was different. Brazil used to at least pretend to be a democracy with a constitution and rule of law. Since then, these supreme court judges have done far worse than block some messaging service. This is literally nothing to people like them.

Re: Brazil judge orders temporary suspension of Telegram

#42

Post by karp773 »

tapoxi wrote: post #40
karp773 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People believe it's encrypted but it's not for group chats or default for direct chats. Did they already adopt a proven published alogithm for encryption, or still using a homegrown KGB-Krypt algorithm? Sorry for a trivial question, I am not a user.

It's still homegrown.

Q.E.D. Thank you!

Re: Brazil judge orders temporary suspension of Telegram

#43

Post by archon1410 »

matheusmoreira wrote: post #36
bhk wrote: post #29

Doesn't this sound like a dictatorship?

It is. We brazilians are living under a judiciary monarchy of sorts. The supreme court basically does whatever it wants.

I think I once read an interesting term for "rule through courts" in reference to Islamic/sharia courts (which also had some tribal significance iirc) in Somalia who acted as the de facto after the central govt collapsed. I can't find it again.

Re: Brazil judge orders temporary suspension of Telegram

#44

Post by supriyo-biswas »

jojobas wrote: post #38
tapoxi wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why couldn't they do DPI and block the protocol?

Because SSL is SSL. They sure tried to block a lot of it. I guess they could collect public keys and block them, but blocking itself is still done by ISP on Roskomnadzor's orders, and they didn't include this capability. That would be another cat and mouse game anyway, you can cut new keypairs faster than you can block them.

India does DNS and SNI (which exposes the hostname) based TLS blocking, I wonder why Russia couldn’t do the same.

Re: Brazil judge orders temporary suspension of Telegram

#45

Post by matheusmoreira »

alwayslikethis wrote: post #3

Good luck. They tried to block it in Russia, but it simply broke their own internet for a while and the effectiveness was spotty until they gave up. To this day I believe there is quite little cooperation between the Russian government and Telegram, despite not being E2EE by default, if we don't consider conspiracy theories, unlike all the other services used in Russia which are basically all backdoored by the state…

> I don't think Telegram has a legal presence in Brazil though. How are they going to enforce the fine?

You're commenting on the news of their enforcement. They are completely fine with blocking Telegram nation-wide until they reveal the user data and pay the fine.

Don't give me that "good luck" speech either. The article mentions the same judges blocked Telegram last year. I submitted news of that here and people here gave me the exact same "lol good luck telegram didn't even submit to Russia" response. A few days later I got the news that Telegram paid the fine.

Re: Brazil judge orders temporary suspension of Telegram

#46

Post by rektide »

voltaireodactyl wrote: post #37
rektide wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You and JP Barlow's Declaration of Independence of Cyberspace can have words. There's 195 nations on this planet. Should every company lower themselves below every nation? Without question? There's far more provinces with some lawmaking capability. How logistically do we even begin to figure out how to obey each & every single local rule? These nations are on the internet. It's an unplace to connect all places. If yo…

> There's 195 nations on this planet. Should every company lower themselves below every nation? Without question? My honest response to this would be: “yes, if they want to do business in said country”. Otherwise we end up where we’ve been, with Facebook being the sole way to access internet in some places. Why should an organization seeking to make a profit hold more sway than the institutions that allow such a prof…

To me it's up to nations to determine whether they want to be connected to the rest of the planet. If you want to make a bunch of rules for yourself, you get what we have here, I hope: your country having to shut off that part of the internet.

You phrase it as doing business. But to me, these people in these other places are coming to us. They are connected to us. The onus is not on the rest of the world to adapt ourselves to these pilgrims. That's not what interconnection implies. We cannot flatten ourselves to be a lowest common denominator to all.

The East India Company feels entirely inapplicable here & is a gross & toxic countersuggestion. That was a case of a nation expanding outward. This is the opposite. This is visitors from afar, visiting us across the internet, a system begat of a free & democratic people.

That all said I am interested in some kind of cooperation. But I have a hard time imagining what a usable basic framework would be. It has to start with realizing sovereignty across boundaries is weak, enormously weak, a supplicant. And working from that start.

Re: Brazil judge orders temporary suspension of Telegram

#48

Post by matheusmoreira »

speeder wrote: post #35
antisocialist wrote: post #27

Supposedly it's about the children. Sao Paulo solved the problem: > Many Brazilian states didn’t wait for the federal response. Sao Paulo, for example, temporarily hired 550 psychologists to attend to its public schools, and hired 1,000 private security guards. https://apnews.com/article/brazil-school-violence-guns-attac... This is what disgruntled poor people did in China, too, used a $5 hatchet. You don't even need…

You are correct. Brazilian had a CIA backed dictatorship during cold War, and when it ended people made sure to make a constitution that would prevent another one. Sadly the constitution is being ignored for a while now, the current government is strongly against free speech, the previous government also had issues. Meanwhile the Supreme Court are the ones that really hate the constitution, for example a guy was arre…

Strongly against free speech... They are discussing a "fake news" law literally right now. It contains terms like "internet supervision entity".

Re: Brazil judge orders temporary suspension of Telegram

#49

Post by jojobas »

supriyo-biswas wrote: post #44
jojobas wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because SSL is SSL. They sure tried to block a lot of it. I guess they could collect public keys and block them, but blocking itself is still done by ISP on Roskomnadzor's orders, and they didn't include this capability. That would be another cat and mouse game anyway, you can cut new keypairs faster than you can block them.

India does DNS and SNI (which exposes the hostname) based TLS blocking, I wonder why Russia couldn’t do the same.

I'm pretty sure Telegram runs their own dns with dynamic addresses and you can create a bunch of certificates for weird host names to dupe SNI. Russia dedicated quite some resources to it and couldn't win. I don't think it had any chance unless they're willing to DPI 100% of traffic China style, but even then it's fundamentally impossible to tell random google cloud/aws website api traffic from telegram.
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