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Layout 2013 and Layout 2020

servo.org

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Re: Layout 2013 and Layout 2020

#41

Post by zarzavat »

rektide wrote: post #29
jpk wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's no real debate because 2/3 players actively believe & push for a small web. It's a miserable rock & hard place situation, trying to figure out what to do when there's only one ayer who believes in a web platform at all. Not to say I don't believe you, I'm just curious. In what way(s) does Google uniquely believe in the web as a platform where Apple/Mozilla don't? Can you provide some examples of this?

Like 18 months ago Safari launched a "look at us we are so great, we don't support these long list of web apis; isn't chrome evil" and Moz joined in like two days latter repeating the exact same claims in an obviously coordinated negativity-campaign. Web USB, web Bluetooth, web midi, ambient light sensor, bunch of other sensors. I'm sorry I really want to find the links & show this off more. It was the most boldfaced…

I completely agree. The amount of FUD Mozilla spread about Web MIDI was truly distasteful. People say that Google is the enemy, and perhaps they are. But at least Google does not write off entire groups of users (like musicians) because of a swivel-eyed security paranoia.

If I wanted a paternalistic entity telling me what I can and can’t do with my device, I’d use an iPad.

Re: Layout 2013 and Layout 2020

#42

Post by quantumwoke »

rektide wrote: post #37
linuxandrew wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google/Blink consistently pushes for bad things like EME, FLoC and Topics API. They have a very different vision of the web where users live in a corporate playground and complex browser engines which only a few large corps can manage. At this point what is making the web a better platform? The web has feature overload, even with features like Server Push which are seldom used. FWIW I think there are some exciting po…

It's a huge company of hundreds of competing ideas. I think most no one has any respect or appreciation for the circumstance flocs & topic Api was raised in. The dogfucker skanks at Internet Advertising Bureau were actively pushing government regulators to replace cookies with some gobshit anti user trash, far worse. I genuinely feel for Google. No one sees or knows any of the other context going down at the time, bu…

While I think your viewpoint is interesting, the language prevented me from appreciating it fully. Would you mind expanding on your opinion on privacy and Mozilla/Apple’s role in the standards process a little more?

Re: Layout 2013 and Layout 2020

#43

Post by rektide »

quantumwoke wrote: post #42
rektide wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a huge company of hundreds of competing ideas. I think most no one has any respect or appreciation for the circumstance flocs & topic Api was raised in. The dogfucker skanks at Internet Advertising Bureau were actively pushing government regulators to replace cookies with some gobshit anti user trash, far worse. I genuinely feel for Google. No one sees or knows any of the other context going down at the time, bu…

While I think your viewpoint is interesting, the language prevented me from appreciating it fully. Would you mind expanding on your opinion on privacy and Mozilla/Apple’s role in the standards process a little more?

[flagged]

Re: Layout 2013 and Layout 2020

#44

Post by HopenHeyHi »

Waterluvian wrote: post #4

I’m not sure I understand the context. They began a replacement engine 7 years later to address shortcomings, and 3 years after that still aren’t sure if it’s actually better and worth switching over to? Now that I write this, I kind of get it. But I’ve only experienced this for weeks worth of work, not for years.

Layout 2020 is an experimental attempt at parallel layout - an intersection between the complexities of "how the hell do I even do that in Rust" and "how the hell do I even do that at all".

Servo if memory serves was also experimenting with 3d layouts in VR as the wave of the future at one point. Make your own conclusions.

The really actually useful thing that came out of that effort was the CSS engine which is already incorporated into Firefox.

https://wiki.mozilla.org/Quantum/Stylo

Re: Layout 2013 and Layout 2020

#45

Post by its-summertime »

linuxandrew wrote: post #7

Servo is now under the Linux Foundation umbrella. It's refreshing to finally see some more players in the browser engine space than the tri-opoly of Google (Blink), Apple (WebKit) and Gecko (Mozilla). LibWeb (Ladybird Browser) is another browser engine, but also in very early days of development. Gecko is depressingly tied to Firefox and not easily embedded. Blink has somehow become the de facto browser engine thanks…

https://wiki.mozilla.org/Mobile/GeckoView it is possible to pull just gecko/spidermonkey/et/al out of firefox.

I do hope GeckoView gets wider support, but at the same time, the competition is already insanely entrenched. People arn't using Firefox because they prefer Gecko's rendering, after all.

Re: Layout 2013 and Layout 2020

#46

Post by draw_down »

Waterluvian wrote: post #4

I’m not sure I understand the context. They began a replacement engine 7 years later to address shortcomings, and 3 years after that still aren’t sure if it’s actually better and worth switching over to? Now that I write this, I kind of get it. But I’ve only experienced this for weeks worth of work, not for years.

[dead]

Re: Layout 2013 and Layout 2020

#47

Post by rtpg »

Centigonal wrote: post #8
andrewmcwatters wrote: post #5

None of this would be so difficult if the CSS specifications were well defined. But they’re not, so we all have to more or less guess what the intrinsic algorithms for drawing fundamental aspects of the web are supposed to be. Such a failure of the CSS specs.

Dumb question: if CSS is under-specified and everyone designs their sites for Chrome, could we analyze Chromium's CSS rendering code and use that to create a more well-defined CSS spec which other browsers can implement?

Is CSS under-specified? when I've been curious about some thing, there has been a pretty detailed spec. There are differences in behavior on newer things as things get worked out, but I feel like so much is due to actual bugs relative to the spec than the spec itself.

Is there an example of under-specification that sticks around in practice?

Re: Layout 2013 and Layout 2020

#48

Post by illiarian »

zarzavat wrote: post #41
rektide wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like 18 months ago Safari launched a "look at us we are so great, we don't support these long list of web apis; isn't chrome evil" and Moz joined in like two days latter repeating the exact same claims in an obviously coordinated negativity-campaign. Web USB, web Bluetooth, web midi, ambient light sensor, bunch of other sensors. I'm sorry I really want to find the links & show this off more. It was the most boldfaced…

I completely agree. The amount of FUD Mozilla spread about Web MIDI was truly distasteful. People say that Google is the enemy, and perhaps they are. But at least Google does not write off entire groups of users (like musicians) because of a swivel-eyed security paranoia. If I wanted a paternalistic entity telling me what I can and can’t do with my device, I’d use an iPad.

> The amount of FUD Mozilla spread about Web MIDI was truly distasteful.

As in: everything they said is true, and the moment they launched it they found it's used for fingerprinting (and Google doesn't even hide it behind a permission prompt)

Re: Layout 2013 and Layout 2020

#49

Post by illiarian »

rektide wrote: post #29
jpk wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's no real debate because 2/3 players actively believe & push for a small web. It's a miserable rock & hard place situation, trying to figure out what to do when there's only one ayer who believes in a web platform at all. Not to say I don't believe you, I'm just curious. In what way(s) does Google uniquely believe in the web as a platform where Apple/Mozilla don't? Can you provide some examples of this?

Like 18 months ago Safari launched a "look at us we are so great, we don't support these long list of web apis; isn't chrome evil" and Moz joined in like two days latter repeating the exact same claims in an obviously coordinated negativity-campaign. Web USB, web Bluetooth, web midi, ambient light sensor, bunch of other sensors. I'm sorry I really want to find the links & show this off more. It was the most boldfaced…

That's a lot of demagoguery mascarading as fact.

What really happens is that Mozilla brings multiple well-argued objections (Safari, too) that span both technical and non-technical reasons, but Chrome just releases its half-baked non-standards and calls it a day.

Re: Layout 2013 and Layout 2020

#50

Post by kelnos »

rektide wrote: post #37
linuxandrew wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google/Blink consistently pushes for bad things like EME, FLoC and Topics API. They have a very different vision of the web where users live in a corporate playground and complex browser engines which only a few large corps can manage. At this point what is making the web a better platform? The web has feature overload, even with features like Server Push which are seldom used. FWIW I think there are some exciting po…

It's a huge company of hundreds of competing ideas. I think most no one has any respect or appreciation for the circumstance flocs & topic Api was raised in. The dogfucker skanks at Internet Advertising Bureau were actively pushing government regulators to replace cookies with some gobshit anti user trash, far worse. I genuinely feel for Google. No one sees or knows any of the other context going down at the time, bu…

Google is a huge company, yes, but the number of people who drive Blink development is relatively small (of course it is; if most of Google was focused on or even had significant input into Blink, they'd both fail).

I think you have it backwards. It's not that Google has lost the will to fight for good, it's just that Google is a corporation, and their "don't be evil" mantra was only a thing when they were small and it was convenient and profitable for them.

Google has not given a damn about doing "good shit" or about privacy for well over a decade now. Their entire business model is predicated on surveillance capitalism. If they ever truly were the "good guys", they have not been that for most of the evolution of the modern web.

Google is not our friend. They suck, for entirely predictable capitalistic reasons, and their stranglehold overv web standards needs to stop.

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