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What you give up by moving into engineering management

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Re: What you give up by moving into engineering management

#41

I have been a swe for most of my life then transitioned into a manager (corporate and small/mid startups) for a while and am a director now (scaleup unicorn). The politics is something that always bothers me, the higher you get in the ladder, the more people are obsessed by "just following the process", and there's always so many inefficient processes that are applied in environments that definitely do not require su…

> the higher you get in the ladder, the more people are obsessed by "just following the process"

This is definitely not universally true, and it's a red flag if you're hearing it a lot. The tricky part is understanding whether it is subtle feedback from skilled leaders (I can think of a half dozen reasons why this feedback might legitimately be given), or whether you are dealing with muppet leadership who are leaning on a rote processes to mask their own incompetence. The truth is generally somewhere in between, and very hard to ascertain with a good amount of diverse experience and enough time working with the individuals in question to understand their strengths, weaknesses and styles.

> But the thing that always bothered me the most is being in the middle between the people you care about (your team) and the people that tell you to do things because they can't be bothered actually doing them (upper management).

This comment is a sign of immaturity. The point of a hierarchical organization is to be able to maintain some direction while scaling the workforce. Every manager needs to make a decision on how to best spend their time, and delegation is a critical piece of that. Obviously you can and will have differences with your boss from time to time, but fundamentally if you don't have some general faith in leadership above you that their reasons are good, then you're going to be in a rough spot. The belief that you serve your team while leadership is a nuisance to be tolerated and worked around is a toxic mentality. Your job is to create harmony between those perspectives, so the right information is flowing both up and down, and you can't do that if you don't understand where leadership is coming from.

Re: What you give up by moving into engineering management

#42
post #19

The biggest thing most managers give up is their mind. You start using corporate jargon. You become more authoritarian. You embrace careerism (a term I invented to describe people who erroneously conflate rising in corporate rank with happiness). You quickly learn that no one understands anything about the people or the business--and that all decisions are made by gut, cherry picked data, and story-telling. Suddenly,…

> You must be willing to say "I don't know" does not sound like any manager i ever knew

I hear it all the time. From ic's and managers.

One of the signs of a healthy culture is that people are not afraid to acknowledge knowledge gaps.

Re: What you give up by moving into engineering management

#43
The majority of the content and comments on HN tell about the benefits of remaining an IC and not moving into management.

Why do people need to convince each other _not_ to move into management by content like this?

To get a balanced view - what are the advantages of becoming a manager? What are the rewarding parts of managing people?

Re: What you give up by moving into engineering management

#44

I have been a swe for most of my life then transitioned into a manager (corporate and small/mid startups) for a while and am a director now (scaleup unicorn). The politics is something that always bothers me, the higher you get in the ladder, the more people are obsessed by "just following the process", and there's always so many inefficient processes that are applied in environments that definitely do not require su…

Isn't "scaleup unicorn" a contradiction?

Re: What you give up by moving into engineering management

#46
post #19

The biggest thing most managers give up is their mind. You start using corporate jargon. You become more authoritarian. You embrace careerism (a term I invented to describe people who erroneously conflate rising in corporate rank with happiness). You quickly learn that no one understands anything about the people or the business--and that all decisions are made by gut, cherry picked data, and story-telling. Suddenly,…

It seems like you're a manager, but how do these two sentiments go together:

> You must be willing to say "I don't know" 10x more than as an IC

> All other approaches will lead to you failing to deliver results, failing to retain, and a drag on the org.

Your advice is contradictory on its face. How can you embrace "not knowing" and having a curious mind, while at the same time declaring that this set of operational activities are "the only way to do it"?

> You must believe deep down in your core that ordering a human being to do something is a sign you must introspect about your failure as a manager, and commit to fixing the problem.

This also just seems like new-age guilt injected into the work place. Don't be a micro manager always in people's faces for no reason but if you're telling yourself you're a failure because _as a manager_ you told someone to do something, I'm not sure how you last more than 2 days on the job.

Re: What you give up by moving into engineering management

#47
post #46
post #19

The biggest thing most managers give up is their mind. You start using corporate jargon. You become more authoritarian. You embrace careerism (a term I invented to describe people who erroneously conflate rising in corporate rank with happiness). You quickly learn that no one understands anything about the people or the business--and that all decisions are made by gut, cherry picked data, and story-telling. Suddenly,…

It seems like you're a manager, but how do these two sentiments go together: > You must be willing to say "I don't know" 10x more than as an IC > All other approaches will lead to you failing to deliver results, failing to retain, and a drag on the org. Your advice is contradictory on its face. How can you embrace "not knowing" and having a curious mind, while at the same time declaring that this set of operational a…

You must be a merciless judge of what you hold has knowledge (that is, have certainty beyond a reasonable doubt). Misstating as a manager is vastly more damaging than as an IC. Even if you know something, it is often valuable to defer to your team for the answer.

Giving direction and context is different from giving orders.

Re: What you give up by moving into engineering management

#48
post #19

The biggest thing most managers give up is their mind. You start using corporate jargon. You become more authoritarian. You embrace careerism (a term I invented to describe people who erroneously conflate rising in corporate rank with happiness). You quickly learn that no one understands anything about the people or the business--and that all decisions are made by gut, cherry picked data, and story-telling. Suddenly,…

As an IC, I’ve had about 8 managers in my day. Sadly, I failed to recognize and appreciate great managers due to my own lack of maturity at the time and not understanding the manager role.

Earlier in my career, I had a manager who I initially had pegged as disengaged - he wasn’t, he was just actually delegating and managing without getting bogged down in the IC work he entrusted to his reports. At the time I thought this was not helpful as he couldn’t help me much with my direct tasks, and I had been on the team well before he joined so he would ask more questions to be answered by me than I of him. Frequently in our 1:1s I would not even know what to talk about.

But looking back, I realized I was asking the wrong questions, and he the right ones. He carved out a lot of scope and big projects for me (and others) which greatly advanced my career. He was bullshit shielding and setting up new projects so well that I didn’t realize how good he was at that until he was gone. In his focus time he was prototyping useful but not-critical-path tooling to make us all more productive. I almost want to cry thinking about how critical of him I was (never shared, but sometimes reflected implicitly with how I phrased questions) at the time. Nobody is perfect and I think he did try to communicate, but very vaguely and circuitously in a way I didn’t understand, how he saw his role by telling me an analogy along the lines of him being more of a than a .

To add to your list, I’d say expect reports to not understand or appreciate what you are doing for them. Maybe it’d help to make it a bit apparent now and then in a way that doesn’t flex the inherent power balance - probably better to show some of the bullshit averted than “look at what I wrote to get you promoted”. Or maybe it’d be good to directly share something like your comment to say “Hey, I’m on your side, and please let me know if you need cover for some incoming BS or want to try something with more scope - I’ll try my best even if I don’t have all our code’s class hierarchies memorized.” Because immature reports like my former self may not realize that a good manager works by entrusting reports and delegating decisions (with some consensus building) if they haven’t encountered that yet.

Re: What you give up by moving into engineering management

#49
post #4

I think the author's experience is more true in smaller companies or startups. In the big tech companies especially, high-band senior or principal engineers are expected to lead through influence (without being anyone's boss) and have to make these exact same tradeoffs effectively to succeed. You can coast as a senior in many places if you want to just deliver by yourself, but you won't get further. Also note that th…

Yeah, I was confused - even at Staff level you need to do a lot of these that I was wondering if I have been doing it wrong.

Re: What you give up by moving into engineering management

#50

I have been a swe for most of my life then transitioned into a manager (corporate and small/mid startups) for a while and am a director now (scaleup unicorn). The politics is something that always bothers me, the higher you get in the ladder, the more people are obsessed by "just following the process", and there's always so many inefficient processes that are applied in environments that definitely do not require su…

Has that happened at all your workplaces and from manager to director? This sounds almost identical to how an IC would experience a bad manager. It just sounds like you have or have had bad managers yourself.

I’m but a lowly leaf node in the corporate hierarchy ATM but I’m curious about the “do things because they can’t be bothered actually doing them” - isn’t delegation down the tree like the entire point of being a manager? If you could elaborate I’d be quite interested

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