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Heat pump disappointment for climate-minded Massachusetts state senator

willbrownsberger.com

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Re: Heat pump disappointment for climate-minded Massachusetts state senator

#41

Post by throwaway4aday »

endisneigh wrote: post #18

I intuited this as well, which is why I stayed with gas heat. These days I'm even wondering if wood heat with a high efficiency furnace makes sense. There are so many dead trees around me. The carbon is going to go back either way. In the case of decomposition, there may be other negative effects of leaving it on the ground compared to burning it. I haven't given much thought to a way to capture the heat in a way tha…

If you have hydronic heating anyways then why not get a wood fired boiler? They're extremely common where I am. Why would you need to store the heat? A wood fire isn't instant on but it doesn't take that long either plus you get the heat from the stove itself well before the baseboards heat up.

Re: Heat pump disappointment for climate-minded Massachusetts state senator

#42

Post by c4mpute »

post_break wrote: post #8

I wonder if we will ever see them switch to R-1234YF refrigerant. "While R-134a has a Global Warming Potential of 1300, R-1234yf’s GWP is less than 1." The only issue is the higher pressures and the fact that it's somewhat flammable might be why. I will say, my heat pump dryer, while it has removed some buttons from shirts, has exceeded my expectations on energy usage. It's night and day compared to my toaster I had…

I'm not sure if you will ever see that, the EU is currently trying to band all flourinated hydrocarbons, right in the middle of the 'we all need a heatpump' run. The only "viable" refrigerants after that will be CO_2, propane and ammonia. The "viable" is in scare-quotes because all of them are kind of nasty, CO_2 and ammonia are quite poisonous, CO_2 is inefficient or unusable for the temperature range in question, ammonia is very very corrosive and propane is flammable and explosive. Maybe the US will do the sensible thing and wait it out, meanwhile buying up all the cheap, working heatpumps with traditional refrigerants.

Re: Heat pump disappointment for climate-minded Massachusetts state senator

#43

Post by jojobas »

ab_goat wrote: post #39

Brownberger seems to miss the key fact that you can't run a gas heating system on renewable energy. Just as in switching to an EV isn't going to make things significantly better, switching your heating to heat pump isn't either: Some basic tips from a fellow Bay Stater: 1. Any new or replacement mechanicals should be use heat pumps (water heater too) 2. Make sure your house is well-insulated to get the best bang for…

Is net metering available anywhere at all? Where I am it's long gone, and I hear in some areas they charge you to use your excess energy.

Re: Heat pump disappointment for climate-minded Massachusetts state senator

#44

Post by osigurdson »

tcfhgj wrote: post #22
phkahler wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Of course it's extremely important to switch people to electrified heating systems, regardless of their efficiency. You could use a gas fired heat pump. It won't work as an air conditioner, but it won't stress the grid and could even work when the power goes out.

you are better of adding with a gas plant to the grid, which can be up to 84% efficient (if you reuse the heat generated by the turbine as well) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_cycle_power_plant

Up to 64% as stated in the article. The 84% efficiency statement is in reference to the theoretical efficiency of a Carnot cycle.

Re: Heat pump disappointment for climate-minded Massachusetts state senator

#45

Post by tcfhgj »

ab_goat wrote: post #39

Brownberger seems to miss the key fact that you can't run a gas heating system on renewable energy. Just as in switching to an EV isn't going to make things significantly better, switching your heating to heat pump isn't either: Some basic tips from a fellow Bay Stater: 1. Any new or replacement mechanicals should be use heat pumps (water heater too) 2. Make sure your house is well-insulated to get the best bang for…

> Brownberger seems to miss the key fact that you can't run a gas heating system on renewable energy.

just a small nit pick:

In theory you can produce methane from electricity, so it is possible. However the efficiencies are abysmal, which makes this almost always a very bad solution.

Re: Heat pump disappointment for climate-minded Massachusetts state senator

#46

Post by osigurdson »

jakedata wrote: post #21

This is why I couple my heat pump operation to solar output from my panels. Any time I can fully self power it is a 100% win. During the darkest and coldest months however, the existing gas boiler takes the lead. My heat pump is 5 years old and has never leaked refrigerant. I also collect the condensate for the gardens.

>> During the darkest and coldest months however...

How cold are the coldest months?

Re: Heat pump disappointment for climate-minded Massachusetts state senator

#47

Post by falcolas »

tcfhgj wrote: post #31
flankstaek wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think the manufacturers mislabeled efficiency has any relevance to how the installation team performed?

I would assume the team knows the products they are installing

Bad assumption. It’s like expecting framers to know the ins and outs of LVL production.

They’re there to put widget A in widget B, according to the instructions.

Re: Heat pump disappointment for climate-minded Massachusetts state senator

#49

Post by chongli »

tcfhgj wrote: post #22
phkahler wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Of course it's extremely important to switch people to electrified heating systems, regardless of their efficiency. You could use a gas fired heat pump. It won't work as an air conditioner, but it won't stress the grid and could even work when the power goes out.

you are better of adding with a gas plant to the grid, which can be up to 84% efficient (if you reuse the heat generated by the turbine as well) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_cycle_power_plant

A home gas furnace can easily surpass 90% efficiency. Turning the gas into electricity and then including the transmission losses to the home is going to be way below 84% efficiency. Plus reusing the heat produced at the power plant is much more difficult than reusing the heat produced in the home, when the purpose is heating the home in the first place.

Re: Heat pump disappointment for climate-minded Massachusetts state senator

#50

Post by hospadar »

The author does not mention if their system is air-sourced or ground-sourced (aka geothermal) - ground sourced systems typically use 25-50% less energy and are especially well-suited to places with colder temp extremes where an air-sourced system becomes quite inefficient. Downside is more expensive to install (need to bury a bunch of tubes in your yard)

[1] http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2016/ph240/holmvik1/docs/d...

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