Steve Jobs personally asked Eric Schmidt to stop poaching employees • Hacker News Board

Re: Steve Jobs personally asked Eric Schmidt to stop poaching employees

#41

Post by itmag » Sat, Jan 28, 2012, 3:57 PM UTC

michaelochurch wrote: post #39

itmag wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that small cabals of individuals can act in collusion like this goes against the commonly held view of the economy as an anonymous force of nature that always moves toward efficient equilibrium. But sometimes that's just what happens.

Why I find "conspiracy theories" ridiculous: with "friends" (above-board entities like corporations, proud of having titled nobility... er, I mean, executives; I forgot that "America doesn't have a hereditary aristocracy") like our leading large institutions, who needs enemies? Why invent shadowy evil organizations when there are so many objectively-visible and extremely greedy (if not quite evil, and most often too…

Conspiracy just means "in the same spirit" (from the latin con spirare - breathe together).

Re: Steve Jobs personally asked Eric Schmidt to stop poaching employees

#42

Post by jballanc » Sat, Jan 28, 2012, 4:09 PM UTC

asmithmd1 wrote: post #6

imagine how fast Congress would get involved if something like this were revealed to exist between basketball or football teams for free agents. If these companies don't want employees to leave they are free to sign long term contracts to lock them up. This is plainly illegal

The difference, of course, is that basketball and football players have unions, and therefore can use collective bargaining to force the establishment of contracts. Luckily (for software executives), I don't think we have to worry about software engineers forming a union...

Re: Steve Jobs personally asked Eric Schmidt to stop poaching employees

#43

Post by michaelochurch » Sat, Jan 28, 2012, 4:16 PM UTC

itmag wrote: post #41

michaelochurch wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why I find "conspiracy theories" ridiculous: with "friends" (above-board entities like corporations, proud of having titled nobility... er, I mean, executives; I forgot that "America doesn't have a hereditary aristocracy") like our leading large institutions, who needs enemies? Why invent shadowy evil organizations when there are so many objectively-visible and extremely greedy (if not quite evil, and most often too…

Conspiracy just means "in the same spirit" (from the latin con spirare - breathe together).

Upvote back to +1, just because I think it's interesting how words fairly arbitrarily acquire strong signed (positive or negative) meanings, e.g. awful vs. awesome, collaboration vs. collusion. It's not at all stable across languages. If you call someone a "collabo" (collaborator) in France, that's a huge insult (referring to Nazi collaborators in the Vichy era).

Re: Steve Jobs personally asked Eric Schmidt to stop poaching employees

#44

Post by ambler0 » Sat, Jan 28, 2012, 4:18 PM UTC

michaelochurch wrote: post #39

itmag wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that small cabals of individuals can act in collusion like this goes against the commonly held view of the economy as an anonymous force of nature that always moves toward efficient equilibrium. But sometimes that's just what happens.

Why I find "conspiracy theories" ridiculous: with "friends" (above-board entities like corporations, proud of having titled nobility... er, I mean, executives; I forgot that "America doesn't have a hereditary aristocracy") like our leading large institutions, who needs enemies? Why invent shadowy evil organizations when there are so many objectively-visible and extremely greedy (if not quite evil, and most often too…

So it sounds like you don't have a problem with "conspiracy theories" after all. Neither do I. Conspiracies happen all the time, as you say.

When you talk about shadowy mansions and orgies, it sounds to me like you're invoking a straw man conspiracy. But real conspiracies are plenty shadowy (isn't that the whole idea?) The upper level meetings of the very powerful seem to be quite secretive, with great security, be they in boardrooms or at parties in Aspen.

What frustrates me is that "conspiracy theory" has just become code for "thing that can't possibly be even considered". This is the message that comes down to us whenever people want to discuss, e.g. income equality, or the reasons for going to war. People internalize this, making it difficult for them to evaluate the real everyday conspiracies that take place around them, and, of course, benefiting conspirators.

Re: Steve Jobs personally asked Eric Schmidt to stop poaching employees

#45

Post by itmag » Sat, Jan 28, 2012, 4:22 PM UTC

michaelochurch wrote: post #43

itmag wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Conspiracy just means "in the same spirit" (from the latin con spirare - breathe together).

Upvote back to +1, just because I think it's interesting how words fairly arbitrarily acquire strong signed (positive or negative) meanings, e.g. awful vs. awesome, collaboration vs. collusion. It's not at all stable across languages. If you call someone a "collabo" (collaborator) in France, that's a huge insult (referring to Nazi collaborators in the Vichy era).

I think my comment is valid and on-topic. People make fun of conspiracy theories, but the fact is that conspiracies go on all the time. There is even a crime called "conspiracy", after all. It would be better to say "implausible crank theories" or something when that is what one refers to.

Re: Steve Jobs personally asked Eric Schmidt to stop poaching employees

#46

Post by malandrew » Sat, Jan 28, 2012, 4:31 PM UTC

The one argument I get sick of hearing bandied around in cases like these is: "but those companies invested a lot of money in training their employees. How would you like it if you owned a business and trained someone only to have them poached?"

In the words of Dwight Shrute: "False!". Most of the employees in question in this case and probably every other case where poaching is worthwhile are autodidacts. These employees are valuable precisely because they work hard to increase their own value. They know that, and they deserve to be paid accordingly by shopping themselves around.

It is in the market for autodidacts where actions like these are most damaging to the individuals affected.

Re: Steve Jobs personally asked Eric Schmidt to stop poaching employees

#47

Post by malandrew » Sat, Jan 28, 2012, 4:35 PM UTC

asmithmd1 wrote: post #6

imagine how fast Congress would get involved if something like this were revealed to exist between basketball or football teams for free agents. If these companies don't want employees to leave they are free to sign long term contracts to lock them up. This is plainly illegal

"Hire slow. Fire fast."

Would fast firing even be possible with long-term contracts? Firing fast isn't something that is done for the sake of saving money. It is done for the sake of avoiding the damaging effects of keeping someone on the team that hurts the productivity of the other team members.

Re: Steve Jobs personally asked Eric Schmidt to stop poaching employees

#48

Post by ambler0 » Sat, Jan 28, 2012, 4:36 PM UTC

itmag wrote: post #45

michaelochurch wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Upvote back to +1, just because I think it's interesting how words fairly arbitrarily acquire strong signed (positive or negative) meanings, e.g. awful vs. awesome, collaboration vs. collusion. It's not at all stable across languages. If you call someone a "collabo" (collaborator) in France, that's a huge insult (referring to Nazi collaborators in the Vichy era).

I think my comment is valid and on-topic. People make fun of conspiracy theories, but the fact is that conspiracies go on all the time. There is even a crime called "conspiracy", after all. It would be better to say "implausible crank theories" or something when that is what one refers to.

Thank you for bringing this fact up. "conspiracy to commit x" is an extremely common charge in our legal system.

The Orwellification of the word is such that, only when we try to apply this term to the powerful do we suddenly become crazy kooks, despite the fact that the powerful are often the ones with the motive, and certainly the means, to engage in conspiracy.

Re: Steve Jobs personally asked Eric Schmidt to stop poaching employees

#49

Post by sycren » Sat, Jan 28, 2012, 4:47 PM UTC

m__ wrote: post #5

This seems like a pretty poor strategy for the involved companies. 1) It makes other companies (not involved in the agreement) more attractive, as their salaries will be closer to the salaries offered by the companies involved in the cartel. 2) This means that the pool of potential employees is reduced due the agreement, which means that the companies involved in the cartel will have to bear higher recruiting costs.…

Perhaps for some small part this is why Facebook managed to poach from Google so successfully..

Re: Steve Jobs personally asked Eric Schmidt to stop poaching employees

#50

Post by AlexV » Sat, Jan 28, 2012, 4:54 PM UTC

I would be curios to see a LinkedIn graph showing (and proactively finding) evidence of this whole saga. That is, I would expect to see less movement of employees with certain talents, between conspiring companies.