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America Has Replaced Capitalism with Cronyism

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Re: America Has Replaced Capitalism with Cronyism

#41

Post by malermeister »

merpnderp wrote: post #20
dingusdew wrote: post #8

"Cronyism" is the long-term result of capitalism. It will always result in this type of corruption, it's the nature of an economic system that rewards greed. Cronyism is just another way to say "Late Stage Capitalism."

I see comments like this and I wonder what do people actually learn in school. Adam Smith wrote extensively about this (surely people still learn about him). His premise were people are naturally greedy, and it is good to use a system that pits their greed against each other. A natural competition to provide goods and services to each other. And it has worked well for hundreds of years, pulling billions out of povert…

The problem with that naive viewpoint is that it assumes that greedy people that got successful playing the game won't use their power to mess with the rules.

Once the first set of greedy people gets powerful enough, they change the playing field and cement their lead.

75% of those billions pulled out of poverty were in China [0], which is explicitly not capitalist.

[0] https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2022/04/01/l...

Re: America Has Replaced Capitalism with Cronyism

#42

Post by polygamous_bat »

throwawaylinux wrote: post #38
malermeister wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We just had all of the VCs show their ass (including the ones running this very site) by begging Big Government to please step in and bail them out. It's capitalism, not the government.

Again, the system of massive government regulation and taxation, borrowing, and spending programmes is not "capitalism". I don't know what "VCs show their ass", or people asking the government to help them has anything to do with it. Government propping up special interests is pretty anti capitalistic, whether it's a corporation, an unemployed person, or a college student trying to default on their loans.

> Government propping up special interests is pretty anti capitalistic, whether it's a corporation, an unemployed person, or a college student trying to default on their loans.

So I am assuming a purely capitalistic system would let the elderly and the disabled die on the street begging for charity? Are you advocating for such a system? Because no thank you, I am good.

Re: America Has Replaced Capitalism with Cronyism

#43

Post by jaggederest »

EarlKing wrote: post #14
wahnfrieden wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have no variable capital / are not a capitalist. You’re a laborer.

TIL that an independent contractor with his own tools has no capital. LOL.

That's called a laborer. Frequently they own their own tools.

"Capital", in this context, means the ownership of the means of production (classically factories, but in this century as much pointed to data, land, and regulatory capture). Specifically, the means of production that you do not operate.

If you must do labor for a living, you are not a capital owner. Stop identifying with the class of owners when you are a "working stiff" even if you're making mid six figures in tech or as the owner of a small business. In "Wall Street" Gordon Gekko was talking about "400k-a-year working wall street stiffs", and that's a million a year or better these days, after inflation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqjQxs9l5fg

Re: America Has Replaced Capitalism with Cronyism

#45

Post by drak0n1c »

dingusdew wrote: post #8

"Cronyism" is the long-term result of capitalism. It will always result in this type of corruption, it's the nature of an economic system that rewards greed. Cronyism is just another way to say "Late Stage Capitalism."

Interesting, does that mean modern Russia, China, and North Korea can be simply considered the results of Late Stage Socialism?

Re: America Has Replaced Capitalism with Cronyism

#46

Post by throwawaylinux »

polygamous_bat wrote: post #42
throwawaylinux wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, the system of massive government regulation and taxation, borrowing, and spending programmes is not "capitalism". I don't know what "VCs show their ass", or people asking the government to help them has anything to do with it. Government propping up special interests is pretty anti capitalistic, whether it's a corporation, an unemployed person, or a college student trying to default on their loans.

> Government propping up special interests is pretty anti capitalistic, whether it's a corporation, an unemployed person, or a college student trying to default on their loans. So I am assuming a purely capitalistic system would let the elderly and the disabled die on the street begging for charity? Are you advocating for such a system? Because no thank you, I am good.

By some peoples' definition of a purely capitalistic system that could be the case. By others, where most people are happy to pay a small and reasonable amount of tax, donation, or general insurance to have some social systems in place, because they can see the benefit and recognize that society is improved for their benefit as well even if they never make use of them directly (and therefore it being somewhat close to if not exactly a voluntary exchange for mutual benefit), it would not necessarily be.

I wasn't advocating for anything in these posts by the way, so your rhetorical question is not an argument. Here is one for you though, do you believe that in communist China, Vietnam, USSR, Cuba, Cambodia, etc., that there were no homeless or beggars?

Re: America Has Replaced Capitalism with Cronyism

#47

Post by Vt71fcAqt7 »

dingusdew wrote: post #8

"Cronyism" is the long-term result of capitalism. It will always result in this type of corruption, it's the nature of an economic system that rewards greed. Cronyism is just another way to say "Late Stage Capitalism."

>"Late Stage Capitalism"

Communist have been claiming to be able to predict the future for the past two centuries. Certainly this time you will get it right?

Re: America Has Replaced Capitalism with Cronyism

#48

Post by vitessa »

b1c1jones wrote: post #19
vitessa wrote: post #7

This was capitalism, a beacon of hope for people who are smart, hardworking, and comfortable with risk, promising a greater share of the spoils to them than to those who are not. Wrong. That’s not what capitalism is or means. Capitalism is an economic system in which private investors run the economy in search of personal profit, while those who lack capital rely on wage labor to survive. You can debate whether this…

How do you prevent capitalism and dollars being free speech from turning into oligarchy? Asking for a friend. Actually, a few billion friends, come to think of it.

You can’t. You have three options:

1. A violent revolution against capitalism that destroys it.

2. You slowly contain capitalism and wind it down, making the elite increasingly irrelevant, as it appeared the US and Europe might have been on track to do from 1933-73, until you’ve basically achieved socialism without necessarily calling it that.

3. Capitalism continues to corrode the restraints put in place to contain it until you have an oligarchic nightmare like the US.

3 is completely unacceptable; 1 is a bit better but still involves people getting killed. 2 is probably best if you can pull it off, but the problem is that it requires society to do the right thing for decades whereas an overthrow of capitalism can be done in weeks.

Re: America Has Replaced Capitalism with Cronyism

#49

Post by wongarsu »

BirAdam wrote: post #17
dingusdew wrote: post #8

"Cronyism" is the long-term result of capitalism. It will always result in this type of corruption, it's the nature of an economic system that rewards greed. Cronyism is just another way to say "Late Stage Capitalism."

Cronyism is something that will always happen when free markets mix with democracy. In the USA, this started before the end of the first Presidential term. It isn’t new. All governments suck, all economic systems suck, and it all sucks because people are flawed. We can always try for better, but so far every system that humans design, humans also corrupt and destroy. I would argue that we should all stop trying plan…

> I would argue that we should all stop trying plan the activities of millions.

Not having an economic system sounds impossible. In the absence of a planned system, there would be one that spontaneously emerges, in all likelihood one that's even easier to corrupt.

Not having a government would be more viable, but without a central power we would just revert to "might makes right", which is not so different from cronyism. Not to mention all the problems when infrastructure becomes profit driven or disappears, basic education has to be provided by private teachers, etc.

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