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HP outrages printer users with firmware update suddenly bricking third-party ink

arstechnica.com

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Re: HP outrages printer users with firmware update suddenly bricking third-party ink

#41

Post by vidarh »

gambiting wrote: post #33
Tepix wrote: post #18

How many times has HP dones this now? Who the hell is still buying HP printers? We, as dissminators should tell every consumer not to buy their crap. " It's a trap! "

People who need to print something now and reason with themselves that it's cheaper to buy a basic £29 HP printer because obviously they might need to print something again in the future(at which point the ink has long dried and new replacement is £39 for a cartridge).

There are print on demand options down to single page single copy documents cheap enough I probably won't replace my printer next time as my printing need is now so infrequent. Only issue I've seen is that few of them seem to offer immediate courier service. Many will offer same day, though, and I'm sure most others could arrange a courier if you go through the hassle of calling.

Re: HP outrages printer users with firmware update suddenly bricking third-party ink

#42

Post by nix23 »

xxs wrote: post #40
nix23 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Only government regulations can keep capitalism in check That's what i mean, a customer is allowed to return a device/car/whatever and get fully refunded if the initial function of a device changes with no technical advantage for the customer. Fines brings the Customer nothing (aka you don't get your money back) and is mostly small change for the company, no need to change anything...but paying full refunds for let'…

The onus is on the customers to realize that the has been an issue, and they would be eligible for a refund (minus inflation). Then there are shipping costs, likely the customers bought it from a local retainer, that may or may not be in business... The endless emails and phone calls. Overall the customers are not in any position of power without a forced recall.

>The onus is on the customers to realize that the has been an issue,

If the customer has no issues there are no issues right?

>Then there are shipping costs, likely the customers bought it from a local retainer, that may or may not be in business...

Again it's an HP and you send it directly to them, the MANUFACTURER has to cover all costs. Your retailer has not made the update so he should have nothing to do with it.

>The endless emails and phone calls.

One email: My printer (serial-number) worked for two years with that toner, since your update it's not working anymore (error blablabla), roll back that update or send me a shipping label.

>Overall the customers are not in any position of power without a forced recall.

Time to change that then right? Restore the functionality of my device or take it back.

You are making a problem where no are.

Re: HP outrages printer users with firmware update suddenly bricking third-party ink

#43

Post by bradfa »

kramerger wrote: post #38
bradfa wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The “security” chips are very inexpensive. Both the physical chip and also the associated cost to engineer them into the product and to program them on the assembly line. HP need an update capability or everyone would be outraged if they couldn’t patch CVE. It’s basically free for HP to have this capability to block 3rd party ink. But it comes with a responsibility to not be a jerk, which they seem to have failed at.

The security chips are getting more and more sophisticated as people start to crack the early versions. The R&D cost of this is pretty large, and so is the material costs. You are only considering HP firmware update. But even in that there will be a huge cost for implementing, testing and deploying this new functionality.

The cat and mouse game of "cracking" the toner/ink chips has gone on as long as they have existed. It's been over a decade since I worked for Xerox on these kinds of chips, so they may have gotten much more complex and expensive since then, but it was always quite a delicate game internally as to what kinds of technology we would actually deploy as it's a very delicate balance from a legal standpoint.

Lexmark has historically always taken things too far on the legal side and really ruined the ability for printer companies to "protect" their toner/ink sales from 3rd parties. One recent way Lexmark has taken this too far is: https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/16pdf/15-1189_ebfj.pdf

That's not the first time Lexmark has ended up in front of the US Supreme Court for similar shenanigans. I don't believe they've ever had good luck when cases have made it to higher courts.

Re: HP outrages printer users with firmware update suddenly bricking third-party ink

#44

Post by nix23 »

plaguepilled wrote: post #36
nix23 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Every manufacturer that abuses this mechanism for anything other than actual security updates should be fined in a way that registers on their stock price and if they do it twice they should be fined out of existence. No fines, just allow the customer to send back the devices and get a full refund plus all costs covered by the manufacturer...it could be so easy. Give back the HP and buy a Brother....that would be ca…

>No fines, just allow the customer to send back the devices and get a full refund plus all costs covered by the manufacturer...it could be so easy. Wh-what? Yes fines! ABSOLUTELY yes fines! The punishment should be blunt, uniform, and intimidating! This is absolutely a situation for fines!

>The punishment should be blunt, uniform, and intimidating! This is absolutely a situation for fines!

To cover refund is a much bigger "fine" and the money flows directly back to those who suffered, that's not the case with fines, and fines are mostly small change for big-corps.

Just extend the rights of Customers and everything could be fine.

Re: HP outrages printer users with firmware update suddenly bricking third-party ink

#45

Post by otherme123 »

louwrentius wrote: post #28
nix23 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Every manufacturer that abuses this mechanism for anything other than actual security updates should be fined in a way that registers on their stock price and if they do it twice they should be fined out of existence. No fines, just allow the customer to send back the devices and get a full refund plus all costs covered by the manufacturer...it could be so easy. Give back the HP and buy a Brother....that would be ca…

This is a problem not solved by the market, for many reasons, but the most important one is that they all try to do this sooner or later. Shareholder value must increase and be found somewhere. Only government regulations can keep capitalism in check, maybe an unpopular opinion on HN but it hurts startups too because the market is not penetrable for competition.

Some people requires market to work 100% perfect, or else government regulations. For some reason, government regulations are allowed to fail miserably (e.g. 18th amendment).

The market solution doesn't have to be your desired solution. Here it seems that some people doesn't care HP practices, so market provides shitty HP practices. They have easy options (bare minimum: don't buy HP), but they actively avoid them, so the market allows and encourages it.

Re: HP outrages printer users with firmware update suddenly bricking third-party ink

#46

Post by ndsipa_pomu »

gambiting wrote: post #33
Tepix wrote: post #18

How many times has HP dones this now? Who the hell is still buying HP printers? We, as dissminators should tell every consumer not to buy their crap. " It's a trap! "

People who need to print something now and reason with themselves that it's cheaper to buy a basic £29 HP printer because obviously they might need to print something again in the future(at which point the ink has long dried and new replacement is £39 for a cartridge).

I'm convinced that laser printers are the answer. Colour ones are now more or less affordable and last for many years and of course they have no issue with ink drying out.

Re: HP outrages printer users with firmware update suddenly bricking third-party ink

#47

Post by sacul »

tommica wrote: post #27
nix23 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Every manufacturer that abuses this mechanism for anything other than actual security updates should be fined in a way that registers on their stock price and if they do it twice they should be fined out of existence. No fines, just allow the customer to send back the devices and get a full refund plus all costs covered by the manufacturer...it could be so easy. Give back the HP and buy a Brother....that would be ca…

I got an Epson ecotank and it really works nicely with third party inks

I got one of those too, and I got it because I didn’t want to worry about this kind of garbage from HP. It’s also a bonus that I haven’t had to refill the ink in a LONG time.

But oh my. The quality of the printing is terrible.

Re: HP outrages printer users with firmware update suddenly bricking third-party ink

#49

Post by tinus_hn »

kramerger wrote: post #4

Just imagine how much cheaper their printers and cartridges would be if they didn't waste money on security chips and OTA infrastructure

Canon had this thing where they require toners that have rfid drm but due to the chip shortages they couldn’t get the tags. So they had to provide workarounds for ignoring the drm on the boxes.

Re: HP outrages printer users with firmware update suddenly bricking third-party ink

#50

Post by jacquesm »

nix23 wrote: post #44
plaguepilled wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>No fines, just allow the customer to send back the devices and get a full refund plus all costs covered by the manufacturer...it could be so easy. Wh-what? Yes fines! ABSOLUTELY yes fines! The punishment should be blunt, uniform, and intimidating! This is absolutely a situation for fines!

>The punishment should be blunt, uniform, and intimidating! This is absolutely a situation for fines! To cover refund is a much bigger "fine" and the money flows directly back to those who suffered, that's not the case with fines, and fines are mostly small change for big-corps. Just extend the rights of Customers and everything could be fine.

Refunds can be stymied, much harder with fines (the party on the other side carries a much larger stick).

But fine (pun intended), let's do both. Seriously, this sort of stuff should be discouraged in the strongest possible way.

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