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Why Python keeps growing, explained

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Re: Why Python keeps growing, explained

#41

Post by fredley »

samwillis wrote: post #31

I have been a heavy Python user now about 15 years, but for me now I'm increasingly reaching for modern JavaScript and particularly TypeScript to do the things I would have traditionally done with Python. ES modules, fat arrow expressions, and all the other nice new syntax and library features have made the language so more pleasant to use. In many ways the ergonomics of TypeScript in particular are far superior to P…

I am going this way too. I recently tried to onboard a few contractors with limited python experience. It took several deep sessions to work out why they couldn't get an environment set up. After 10+ years I've never come across the install certificates command. There's still no way to get a dev environment with a specific version of Python working with one command that works reliably everywhere. pyenv isn't even packaged for Linux, you have to install from source.

This, plus Typescript's superior type system makes it very tempting for application development.

However I'll probably wait until there's a really good Jupyter Notebook equivalent...

Re: Why Python keeps growing, explained

#43

Post by deafpolygon »

grog_tremor wrote: post #28
deafpolygon wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but with FANTASTIC libraries written in C _and FORTRAN_ ftfy - it's the only way a tragically slow language like Python can keep up. Edit: didn't forget FORTRAN

Eh, you massively overestimate the importance of performance. For the vast majority of use cases, performance just isn't a priority. Doubly so for Python, that shines for simple automation, command line applications, and perhaps some serveless computing. Being easy to write, having a good ecosystem of libraries, and being widely known is typically good enough. I wouldn't use Python to write a robust backend server si…

Eh, you make incorrect assumptions about me. I'm stating a fact why Python is used - the data science ecosystem in Python thrives because of well-written libraries _written in C_ under the hood AND an easy-to-use language that writes like pseudocode.

If it was too slow, we'd be doing all of this in Java, the C# or maybe doing it in C/Fortran. But because of some early design decisions (Guido being on the matrix-sig helped), the history behind Numeric/Numarray and finally NumPy and SciPy being based on those efforts allowed it to thrive.

Re: Why Python keeps growing, explained

#44

Post by marginalia_nu »

gorgoiler wrote: post #8

The comparison with Java is always a funny one. Consider this: import sys def main( args: list[str], ) -> int: sys.stdout.write(“hi\n”) return 0 sys.exit(main()) Apart from the call to write instead of print everything else there is a standard Python pattern for writing testable, type-safe arg-parsing code! It’s just that you don’t have to write testable, type-safe code if you don’t want to.

A lot of Java's verbosity isn't so much from the language, but from when the code was written. It happened to come to popularity at a time when big over-engineered Gang of Four-style design was hot. So you get a lot of code written in this over-engineered fashion where half the classes have names that end in DelegateFactoryFacadeMessengerImpl.

Some of it is the language too, but modern Java can definitely be reasonably terse. Record classes has done a lot for the language, so has lambdas and streams.

Re: Why Python keeps growing, explained

#46

Post by ihatepython »

teekert wrote: post #37
pharmakom wrote: post #6

Comparing Python to Java 8 and saying it’s more readable isn’t showing much. And it’s not very portable the second dependencies with native code (which is common since pure Python is too inefficient for many tasks) are used. I think Python is popular for two reasons: - it’s believed to be beginner friendly compared to other languages. I’m not really sure why - maybe the whitespace? - it has an enormous set of librari…

I started in Python, as a Biologist (hooray for Jupyter-lab, coding so visually, in small steps, with output just there is so great when starting to learn Python). I ventured into other languages every now and then. For example I tried to make an Android app in Kotlin that gets info from some API. I expect something like this but with more brackets everywhere: import request data = request.get(https://some.api/get_so…

This isn't really programming though. This is just calling out to seaborn and pandas with an unpleasant interface (Python).

Re: Why Python keeps growing, explained

#47

Post by teekert »

ihatepython wrote: post #46
teekert wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I started in Python, as a Biologist (hooray for Jupyter-lab, coding so visually, in small steps, with output just there is so great when starting to learn Python). I ventured into other languages every now and then. For example I tried to make an Android app in Kotlin that gets info from some API. I expect something like this but with more brackets everywhere: import request data = request.get(https://some.api/get_so…

This isn't really programming though. This is just calling out to seaborn and pandas with an unpleasant interface (Python).

Ok, then I'm not programming. Call it anything you want, I call it "Being productive." Or, "Saving on time spent clicking around in Excel." or "Automating the boring things." And I find it to be quite pleasant.

Maybe it also doesn't help that out there, in the C++, Rust, Javascript, Go world I'm going to run into people with usernames like "ihatepython".

Re: Why Python keeps growing, explained

#48

Post by otherme123 »

qsort wrote: post #27
rob74 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I admit I have a blind spot for Python, because I use PHP in my day job, so when I need to do some scripting, I mostly use PHP. But admittedly Python is a lot friendlier than some alternatives (Perl, Shell scripts etc.), and more universal than others (PHP being mostly used for web dev), so that's why people choosing a scripting language for their tool/library tend to choose Python.

I use Python all the time both for my personal stuff and for some side-projects at work, so this isn't a dunk on Python, but honestly it feels like a circular thing: it's popular because it's popular. I wouldn't say it's friendlier than the alternatives, Perl and Shell scripts sure, but not when compared to Javascript, Ruby or Lua. Now, if you're talking about libraries, support, etc. then sure, Python wins hands dow…

I read "it's popular because it's friendlier". PHP, Javascript or R are popular, but are not friendlier. I find their error messages way worse for the beginner, when you need it more. Third party code is too "clever" for the beginner to read and learn, because it seems to be two languages: the one you are learning in the tutorials, and the other idiom that is used in the serious libraries. As a beginner you are hit with this feeling that you are far, far away from writting an useful thing.

In my job I've seen some beginners starting with R, and quickly hating it because they don't feel they can do much on their own, but copy-pasting and then modifying from the examples and the tutorials. And it the changes go too far, everything collapses with cryptic errors. When you show them Python as an alternative, pointing that they shouldn't use it over R for statistics and graphics, they like that they can build ideas from the scratch. That beginner is hooked for life.

Re: Why Python keeps growing, explained

#49

Post by grog_tremor »

deafpolygon wrote: post #43
grog_tremor wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, you massively overestimate the importance of performance. For the vast majority of use cases, performance just isn't a priority. Doubly so for Python, that shines for simple automation, command line applications, and perhaps some serveless computing. Being easy to write, having a good ecosystem of libraries, and being widely known is typically good enough. I wouldn't use Python to write a robust backend server si…

Eh, you make incorrect assumptions about me. I'm stating a fact why Python is used - the data science ecosystem in Python thrives because of well-written libraries _written in C_ under the hood AND an easy-to-use language that writes like pseudocode. If it was too slow, we'd be doing all of this in Java, the C# or maybe doing it in C/Fortran. But because of some early design decisions (Guido being on the matrix-sig h…

> it's the only way a tragically slow language like Python can keep up.

Those were your words, not mine. I need not make any assumptions.

I just replied listing use cases where Python shine due to its strengths, performance being mostly irrelevant. I didn't even mention data science.

And although it's beyond the point, if I was to use Python, why should I care in which language a library was written? If the language allows libraries written in other languages, this is actually a nice feature.

Re: Why Python keeps growing, explained

#50

Post by dagw »

ihatepython wrote: post #46
teekert wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I started in Python, as a Biologist (hooray for Jupyter-lab, coding so visually, in small steps, with output just there is so great when starting to learn Python). I ventured into other languages every now and then. For example I tried to make an Android app in Kotlin that gets info from some API. I expect something like this but with more brackets everywhere: import request data = request.get(https://some.api/get_so…

This isn't really programming though. This is just calling out to seaborn and pandas with an unpleasant interface (Python).

This isn't really programming though.

It is however what a lot of people who 'program' at work do every day. Python actually lets working professionals solve real problems they actually have at work quicker and easier than any other programming language.

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