Live data from Hacker News

The Offshore Networks of Oligarchs

academic.oup.com

41–50 of 98 posts

Re: The Offshore Networks of Oligarchs

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there are a lot of things that aren't tracked very well. Randomly pumped tokens/NFTs - even newly issued and pumped ones - are moving large volumes anonymously. You act like a random trader that caught the wave, but really you are also the addresses pumping the asset with the dark money that isn’t intended to be cashed out. The pumped addresses just wind up with the asset and will never cash out. Your KYC'd a…

Got this message in my Discord message requests, from 13 hours ago: Yo!*Welcome to [redacted]!* What can we offer you We providing quality crypto pumps. *We share the name of target coin in advance.* *We are professional cryptotraders* And finally, we show you how to beat the market and be ahead of everyone. **This is your chance to multiply your investment together with the cryptocurrency market whales**! ** The amo…

maybe, but that's most likely a scam where you will be exit liquidity for the leader too.

but people with the "dark money" can also pay similar kinds of groups. this happens in the stock market all the time too.

if you have the dark money that you won't cash out, you can do it yourself pretty easily as well, you don't actually need to notify a crowd because there are so many bots that will join a pump of any token, and that will cause it to trend too.

Re: The Offshore Networks of Oligarchs

#42

The premise here is very solid- shut down the small number of people that the Oligarchs depend on, and their ability to operate is curtailed much more effectively than trying to attack the oligarchs directly.

The challenge with it is that this doesn't generalize to any shared principle and it's cynical realpolitik dressed up as network science.

I'd argue this paper is less a work of scholarship than an example of collusive, astroturfed, agitprop, where even though russia's oligarchs are an easy target because they are still new money and retain the taint of trade from the corruption that produced their fortunes, the authors are casting aspersions on highly regulated businesses that provide the financial rails for investing and preserving pensions and sovereign wealth.

The only reason you can insure anything or have long term financial instruments at all is because of special purpose vehicles that persist longer than the whims of a given regional governing party. These vehicles are infrastructure that provides financial stability for capital flows that facilitate social stability and growth. I remember the eurozone sovereign debt crisis', and to me the paper just looks like another (tawdry) setup for blaming "speculators and international financiers" for the failed technocratic policies of their peers own makings.

The approach of "going upstream," is guilt by association, and it's unprincipled overreach. The paper is entertaining, and I'm glad that the networkX python library has become so accessible that social activists can use it, but I think we should hold the authors to a higher standard.

Re: The Offshore Networks of Oligarchs

#43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing will be 100% proof around evasion or exploitation. The answer isn't to do nothing and let it be a free-for-all.

I think both sentiments have merit and are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Money stuff tends to follow power laws. The basic, beaurocratic checks probably dissuade 80% of offenders while only stopping maybe 20% of the volume. Doing nothing would leave those 80% of offenders free to launder which seems bad. Meanwhile, it seems fair to call the measures mostly ineffective. There’s also a cost to these measures. The…

Just makes the rest that can avoid it more powerful.

KYC doesn’t protect you from much, all sorts of scams still send money to bank accounts and you wont get your money back from the bank it was sent to even though they should have systems in place to know what is happening and where money is going.

And as you mention it doesn’t dissuade the powerful. So what’s the purpose other than control and bullying the ones who didn’t commit a crime?

Re: The Offshore Networks of Oligarchs

#45
post #21

Every time I have to fill in some AML (anti-money laundering) form I think how much of a waste of time and money it is for every party involved since the real big fish are getting around it with professional help. It's all very kafkaesque and invasive so I come to the conclusion it's more about powerful governments existing to gain more power than it is about solving any injustice.

100%. Elites are allowed to do "money laundering" while commoners are put in jail for it.

FinCen exists to put commoners in jail, for the same things the Elites can do without going to jail. The Elites use Shell Companies to do the same tactics.

The following have FinCen put commoners in jail, but elites move money the same way via Shell companies and stay out of jail: 1) Breaking up transactions, to hide total amount. Commoners=Jail vs Elites=Shell Companies.

2) Fee assets when law enforcement comes = "Obstruction of Justice". Commoners=Jail w/FinCen. Elites=no jail via Shell companies articles of incorporation

3) Keeping identity secret. Commoners=Jail w/FinCen. Shell Companies= No Jail

4) ...list every way commoners go to jail via FinCan and cross boarder. Elites do full list via Shell companies and don't go to jail.

Re: The Offshore Networks of Oligarchs

#46
post #21

Every time I have to fill in some AML (anti-money laundering) form I think how much of a waste of time and money it is for every party involved since the real big fish are getting around it with professional help. It's all very kafkaesque and invasive so I come to the conclusion it's more about powerful governments existing to gain more power than it is about solving any injustice.

AML is just the financial arm of global mass surveillance.

Re: The Offshore Networks of Oligarchs

#47
post #39
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the implications of bitcoin & cryptocurrency to let these systems grow & be harder to deal with has only gone up & up & up ever-more. While I agree the implications are concerning, I think its difficult to overstate just how much of a stranglehold the US regulatory and surveillance machine has over the global financial system. Trying to buy and sell things online without sharing your real name or address is functio…

What's entertaining about this line of thought, that corporations will only treat your data without care and you really need to worry about the government because they'll kill you is that there is a long history in the US of corporations straight up murdering people. And I'm not even talking "accidentally", or though neglect. I'm thinking of the union busting efforts of the railroad and mining companies in the late 1…

> I'm thinking of the union busting efforts of the railroad and mining companies in the late 1800s and early 1900s where the corporations straight up murdered folks.

my favorite examples of corporate union busting from that era all involve the US Army being deployed against workers.

Re: The Offshore Networks of Oligarchs

#48
post #18

After being in the crypto space for a while, and thinking a lot about the problem of tracing money, I've come to the conclusion that the system I'd prefer would be a hybrid. Everyone needs a quota of anonymous spending, say $50/day, $1000/ month and anything after that is public on government ledger. I've mentioned this to a few friends, who've always called it dystopian, yet all alternate systems seems to be worse i…

> a quota of anonymous spending, say $50/day, $1000/ month and anything after that is public on government ledger You're describing cash + digital money.

Completely agree, cash is great, am not aiming to reinvent the bus! There is though a push to remove it, and it's a bit clearer when we aknowledge the goal.

Re: The Offshore Networks of Oligarchs

#49

We're looking for the "Goldilocks Zone" of privacy. We want: * Enough privacy that activists don't wind up facing death squads * Not so much privacy that drug cartels wind up running the country. The problem is that cryptography is all or nothing: for a given observer, the transaction is either private or it isn't. I'm fascinated by models like differential privacy. Maybe there are ways of making systems which snare…

The problem is the institutions writing the laws see it as, "enough privacy to allow us to deal with the Contras, but enough surveillance to stop activists from running the country." ;)

Re: The Offshore Networks of Oligarchs

#50
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the implications of bitcoin & cryptocurrency to let these systems grow & be harder to deal with has only gone up & up & up ever-more. While I agree the implications are concerning, I think its difficult to overstate just how much of a stranglehold the US regulatory and surveillance machine has over the global financial system. Trying to buy and sell things online without sharing your real name or address is functio…

Pointless yelling ensuing: why do you care if people track your chocolate spending? You’re not important enough for anyone to ever put your face to your name to your purchase of the chocolate. Forgive me if I’m talking to someone famous, but I’m not. Nobody gives a damn about you on the internet. They want to know you bought chocolate because they want to sell you more chocolate. That’s it! Just be grateful you don’t…

It's easy to say when times are good. Government basically sort of tries & does good. But as others have pointed out, America has some ghastly data-collection-against-the-people situations in the past 100 years alone.

For example, Ralph Van Deman[1]. After being instrumental in the Philippine-American war (1899-1902)'s military intelligence division, creating some of the first (and incredibly far reaching) catalogs of potential enemies & associates & basically anyone anywhere near-by & using torture regularly to extract confessions/information, he came home to America... to start enormous files as leader of the new Military Intelligence on anti-War, labor, human rights & basically any American standing up or making any noise. Or who happened to be a couple degrees of separation away. Sending under-cover agents out to report back with unsigned reports, working under a veil of secrecy, & calling them "enemy agents" for not being happy-dumb American's & advocating voices.

Among many truly awful things, this lead to the sheriff of Bisbee gathering a vigilante posse of 2000, taking over the telephone network, and then leading the group by a car with a machine-gun mount on it (owned by the local mines of Phelps & Dodge), through Bisbee breaking into homes & pulling people out of beds at gunpoint. The strikers were told at gunpoint to get back to work, and 1186 refused & were shoved into passenger & cattle cars & hauled 180 miles under armed guard. Van Deman is far from personally responsible here, but he is an early leader of the modern world in weaponizing information against potential or related threats. You might be innocent, but if you talk to the wrong people or go to the wrong place, suddenly you're suspect, and maybe men with guns will come into your house & put you on a train out & that's that.

Creating systems that resist the impulse to corruption is necessary. "Abuse of power comes as no surprise", is one Holzer-ism. And what's safe today may not be safe tomorrow (power changes hands but records endure). And I think there is some essential need for human privacy at some level, that it's a gross & disgusting world if humans are deprived of a sense of independent identity, are too closely handled from above.

My example comes from American Midnight, which is a very very very long tale about awful things the US did just 100 years ago. It's well written and as the title says incredibly dark. A huge amount of the book touches on the power of information. We've seen other horrific examples in other states. It seems essential we have privacy, that we give people a sense that they have their own lives to live, with free choices.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Van_Deman

Post reply on HN