Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

english.news.cn

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 99 posts

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#41

Post by yogthos »

roenxi wrote: post #31
yogthos wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure where you get this notion that China is not a democratic country. First, people who actually live in China seem to disagree with you. In fact, far more people in China think that their country is more democratic than Americans think US is. https://www.tbsnews.net/world/china-more-democratic-america-... This page explains how grassroots democracy and public participation works in China. https://news.cgtn.…

The Chinese people are probably misinformed. One of the things that stands out from Western (and Indian) experiments in democracy is they are noisy, boisterous, have very loud special interest groups and are appallingly bad at keeping secrets. Leaders spend a lot of time in front of huge crowds. There simply isn't enough political chatter coming out of China to support the idea that there is a healthy democratic proc…

Seems to me that it's far more likely that you are the one who is misinformed as opposed to people living in China. Not sure what this lack of political chatter that you allude to is to be honest. Anybody who actually follows politics in China knows this statement to be utter nonsense.

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#42

Post by grayhatter »

yogthos wrote: post #19
Kon5ole wrote: post #14

Mostly sympathetic statements but the problem with any statement from a nondemocratic country is that it can change after a bad lunch by the dictator in charge. The problem addressed by the statement from China is entirely caused by Russia being a dictatorship that allows a single individual to control the military might of an entire nation. Democracies have safeguards in place that complicates many radical actions,…

I'm not sure where you get this notion that China is not a democratic country. First, people who actually live in China seem to disagree with you. In fact, far more people in China think that their country is more democratic than Americans think US is. https://www.tbsnews.net/world/china-more-democratic-america-... This page explains how grassroots democracy and public participation works in China. https://news.cgtn.…

> I'm not sure where you get this notion that China is not a democratic country. First, people who actually live in China seem to disagree with you. In fact, far more people in China think that their country is more democratic than Americans think US is. https://www.tbsnews.net/world/china-more-democratic-america-...

I'm not sure if I'm supposed to pretend to be shocked that in a country who's censorship apparatus is not only the worlds best, but well known by the name "The Great Firewall of China"[^1]. The same country who has demonstrated they will jail you for having or expressing thoughts contrary to the ruling party's stance[^2]. That people who live in said country, when asked, agree their country is the best. If I was worried that admitting I have questions about my country would get me sent to an interment camp, for some forced "re-education". I'd likely adamantly agree my country was democratic.

But even I'm mistaken about all the human rights abuses in China, and it's actually a great, misunderstood place. I still wouldn't trust the majority public opinion about something. Because unless I'm curious about sentiment, it's far better to trust and rely on experts, rather than the feelings of an opinion poll. Which is something I'd hope you agree with given you cite a Cambridge study in this very comment.

[^1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship_in_China [^2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_the_press_in_China

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#43

Post by thevagrant »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #36
4gotunameagain wrote: post #5

I like the wishful thinking, even if I think it is impossible that china believes statements such as: 2. Abandoning the Cold War mentality. The security of a country should not be pursued at the expense of others. The security of a region should not be achieved by strengthening or expanding military blocs. The legitimate security interests and concerns of all countries must be taken seriously and addressed properly.…

This is indeed the most interesting part. >The security of a country should not be pursued at the expense of others. The security of a region should not be achieved by strengthening or expanding military blocs. The most clear interpretation of this section is a condemnation of NATO expansion into Ukraine. NATO is the "military bloc" described here. A military bloc is a military alliance of states. Russia invading Ukr…

That doesnt make sense. Ukraine isn't part of NATO. Also NATO is a defensive alliance.

It seems some countries don't want their neighbors to defend themselves?

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#44

Post by yogthos »

Tarsul wrote: post #34
yogthos wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This may shock you, but plenty of western countries don't have term limits. Merkel had a longer term than Xi for example, and nobody was screaming that Germany turned into a dictatorship as I recall. Ultimately, a democracy is a government that works in the interest of the majority and that's being held accountable to the majority. Chinese system seems to do a good job of that as evidenced by the fact that quality of…

but a democracy also has saveguards that protect minorities. Does China have those? I'm thinking about e.g. Uighurs. Also, in a democracy everyone is entitled to have an opinion and say it (good that you can write freely, here!), e.g. criticizing political leaders (like Winnie the pooh) and also freedom of information, e.g. knowing about history (Tiananmen square etc.). Does China offer this?

Uyghurs in China certainly enjoy a lot better lives than indigenous people in US do. Meanwhile, you appear to be confusing your ability to scream into the void with being an actual stakeholder in the political decision making process.

And of course China offers this. Here is the footage of Tianamen Square 1989 as reported on television in China https://web.archive.org/web/20200604205421/https://www.youtu...

Interestingly enough this footage was removed from youtube recently, which leads to the question of which government is actually practising censorship here.

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#45

Post by yogthos »

grayhatter wrote: post #42
yogthos wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure where you get this notion that China is not a democratic country. First, people who actually live in China seem to disagree with you. In fact, far more people in China think that their country is more democratic than Americans think US is. https://www.tbsnews.net/world/china-more-democratic-america-... This page explains how grassroots democracy and public participation works in China. https://news.cgtn.…

> I'm not sure where you get this notion that China is not a democratic country. First, people who actually live in China seem to disagree with you. In fact, far more people in China think that their country is more democratic than Americans think US is. https://www.tbsnews.net/world/china-more-democratic-america- ... I'm not sure if I'm supposed to pretend to be shocked that in a country who's censorship apparatus i…

Ah yes, censorship makes people unable to see whether their lives are good or not. A real genius argument you've mustered here. You should also let people like Manning and Assange know that they shouldn't be worried about being sent into an interment camp.

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#46

Post by grayhatter »

yogthos wrote: post #39
grayhatter wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yeah, what do people who actually live in China know about their own country. Is it still illegal to know things in China? I read stories all the time about government enforced censorship in China, so I think it's fair to assume that people in China know less about the country than interested parties outside the country, right? And while I am just a white American dude, thankfully one who can find China on a map. T…

There is plenty of government censorship happening in US as well. Entire books have been written on this subject. I'm not aware of any country that doesn't have censorship in practice. I think the idea that people living in a country understand their own lives worse than an outsider is beyond absurd. People can certainly understand whether they are happy with their lives and whether their quality of life is improving…

> There is plenty of government censorship happening in US as well. Entire books have been written on this subject

Interesting, can you cite any of these books? I don't believe they contradict my understand that censorship in China is so drastically different from the US that the comparison becomes dishonest.

> I think the idea that people living in a country understand their own lives worse than an outsider is beyond absurd. People can certainly understand whether they are happy with their lives and whether their quality of life is improving or not.

I didn't claim this, because normally I'd agree with you. I don't think I understand their lives better than they do. If someone says they're happy with their life, and I don't suspect duress. I'm happy to believe them. My claim was, in part because it's so hard to get reliable information inside from China given the extreme government censorship; that the opinions from the population about the quality shouldn't be given the normal amount of weight you'd give opinions about the government from a country that has strong protections and freedoms for the press. At best, they're under informed, and at worse they're misinformed. If you disagree, and believe they're perfectly informed, can you explain why there's so many articles, information, and evidence showing the CCP attempting to coverup information and events?

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#47

Post by thevagrant »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #40

It seems like most people in this thread missing the point of this statement. Section 2 is a clear condemnation of NATO expansion into Ukraine. >The security of a region should not be achieved by strengthening or expanding military blocs. I don't think there is any other way to read this. Russia is not expanding a military Bloc . A "military bloc" is a set of countries with military alliance. This is perfectly in lin…

Again, Ukraine isn't part of NATO.

NATO is a defensive alliance.

So you are saying China don't want their neighbors to defend themselves?

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#48

Post by s1artibartfast »

thevagrant wrote: post #43
s1artibartfast wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is indeed the most interesting part. >The security of a country should not be pursued at the expense of others. The security of a region should not be achieved by strengthening or expanding military blocs. The most clear interpretation of this section is a condemnation of NATO expansion into Ukraine. NATO is the "military bloc" described here. A military bloc is a military alliance of states. Russia invading Ukr…

That doesnt make sense. Ukraine isn't part of NATO. Also NATO is a defensive alliance. It seems some countries don't want their neighbors to defend themselves?

NATO declared that Ukraine could be part of the alliance 6 months before the invasion and Russia immediately started their troop build up.

You could argue that NATO is a defensive Alliance but much of the world does not view it that way. The US uses NATO bases for every war it conducts and houses nuclear and non-nuclear missiles and in NATO countries.

Independent of whether you think NATO is a defensive Alliance, this statement condemns the expansion of alliances even for the purpose of increasing security of the Allied countries. It states it quite plainly that it opposes defensive alliances too

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#49

Post by grayhatter »

yogthos wrote: post #45
grayhatter wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not sure where you get this notion that China is not a democratic country. First, people who actually live in China seem to disagree with you. In fact, far more people in China think that their country is more democratic than Americans think US is. https://www.tbsnews.net/world/china-more-democratic-america- ... I'm not sure if I'm supposed to pretend to be shocked that in a country who's censorship apparatus i…

Ah yes, censorship makes people unable to see whether their lives are good or not. A real genius argument you've mustered here. You should also let people like Manning and Assange know that they shouldn't be worried about being sent into an interment camp.

> Ah yes, censorship makes people unable to see whether their lives are good or not. A real genius argument you've mustered here.

Wow, you're just going to be all sorts of mean today... feels bad...

But I think maybe I was unclear. I wasn't claiming the majority of the population in China was unhappy with their lives, or that we shouldn't believe them when they claim to be happy. My point was, it's bad policy to believe an opinion poll, in this case the arguably uneducated populace opinion of how democratic a country is, over experts in the field.

> You should also let people like Manning and Assange know that they shouldn't be worried about being sent into an interment camp.

Interesting red herring here, but my views on the reasonability of these two prosecutions. At least they were for crimes, not related to "subversion of state power". And the fact that there's really only 2 you can name also speaks volumes compared to the volumes you need for the number arrested by CCP.

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#50

Post by mindslight »

yogthos wrote: post #39
grayhatter wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yeah, what do people who actually live in China know about their own country. Is it still illegal to know things in China? I read stories all the time about government enforced censorship in China, so I think it's fair to assume that people in China know less about the country than interested parties outside the country, right? And while I am just a white American dude, thankfully one who can find China on a map. T…

There is plenty of government censorship happening in US as well. Entire books have been written on this subject. I'm not aware of any country that doesn't have censorship in practice. I think the idea that people living in a country understand their own lives worse than an outsider is beyond absurd. People can certainly understand whether they are happy with their lives and whether their quality of life is improving…

> I think the idea that people living in a country understand their own lives worse than an outsider is beyond absurd

I'd say the exact opposite - those in a system become desensitized to its failings, and steeped in societal myths. One needs to be outside of that to have a frame of reference to compare anything to.

Your argument seems to hinge upon material wealth. That can carry a lot of water for a system's failings, as it does in the US. But it's not particularly indicative of the shapes of power structures.

Post reply on HN