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Europe data salary benchmark 2023

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Re: Europe data salary benchmark 2023

#41

Post by johannes1234321 »

hnlmorg wrote: post #18

Articles like these are complete garbage for any practical extrapolation and thus only really written as ad pieces. Why? Because: - cost of living isn’t taken into account - and even if it were, the cost of living varies wildly from one city to another. So you’d need less generalised results - converting everything to USD makes no sense when the article is supposed to be about European countries. And since exchange r…

They also ignore other benefits like health and social security funding, which works quite differently in different countries. Just hard to compare.

Re: Europe data salary benchmark 2023

#42

Post by f6v »

capableweb wrote: post #3

Comparing salaries across European countries without any mention or adjustment by cost of living? What's the purpose?

I said it above and I’m going to repeat it here: what’s the point of adjustment? I might have completely different cost structure than you. The lifestyle was so different for people I worked with in Berlin.

Re: Europe data salary benchmark 2023

#43

Post by f6v »

studgraddesc wrote: post #24
ZephyrBlu wrote: post #9

The median for EU vs US salaries seems likely to be around the same, but the high end in the EU is completely neutered compared to the US. Even in top companies like e.g. Meta, the pay in the US is significantly higher. US ($339k): https://www.levels.fyi/companies/facebook/salaries/software-... UK ($200k): https://www.levels.fyi/companies/facebook/salaries/software-...

Because most of the companies are American and like to keep their best guarded talent close to home, I guess. Also the corporate culture is entirely different. In a European IT company you won't get paid $600k for being an IC. You might get that level of pay, but as some kind of management. But as just one of the runts who does the IT? No way.

Because the IT is seen as a cost rather than innovation driver.

Re: Europe data salary benchmark 2023

#44

Post by ZephyrBlu »

hnlmorg wrote: post #36
ZephyrBlu wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dude, go on https://levels.fyi for 5min and compare US and UK salaries. US ($339k): https://www.levels.fyi/companies/facebook/salaries/software-... UK ($200k): https://www.levels.fyi/companies/facebook/salaries/software-... Lower COL does not make up for $139k USD. I've seen this exact conversation happen on /r/cscareerquestions about US salaries an uncountable number of times. COL never makes up for the salary diffe…

But this article IS an about median wages and not specifically about the top percentile! > Lower COL does not make up for $139k USD It can if property prices for those top percentiles are more than $139k cheaper. My house is worth literally twice the price of my mother in laws house and she lives in a larger property. The only difference is she’s at the north end of England and I’m in the south. Cost of living can va…

According to the US government, the average software developer in the US earns $120k/yr: https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes151252.htm.

In this data, which is focused on tech companies and the tech hubs in Europe (London, Berlin, Amsterdam, etc), the median salary for a senior developer is only $113k.

In other words, above average EU companies in HCOL cities still pay less than the average US developer (Any COL and experience!) earns.

E: editing in house prices is blatantly moving the goalposts.

Re: Europe data salary benchmark 2023

#45

Post by Aachen »

Peroni wrote: post #7

>We’ve used publicly available job boards and self reported data points on European data pay to collect data for 500 jobs across 260 companies. Unfortunately this isn't a particularly useful methodology. Pay data isn't a legal requirement in job ads in Europe (yet) and most job ads opt not to include the data. Publicly available salary is tricky but there's plenty of reliable, highly accurate pay-to-access sources li…

I should have read the article properly, thanks for highlighting that quote. Thought I was massively underpaid (not far removed from 50% for the median at the experience level I'll have in 7 months) but, of course, the job ads that mention any salary will be the ones that have a salary to brag about.

I've scarcely seen a job ad in my area that mentions a minimum salary, only in bigger cities (>1M people) some bigcorps that need to be your cup of tea in the first place. That this only includes job ads with salaries mentioned essentially makes this useless.

Plus, not all secondary benefits can be converted to money (how much is working from home worth, the same as a few hundred days' worth of bus tickets? What about the time saved?), which I should also keep in mind when looking at salary comparisons.

Re: Europe data salary benchmark 2023

#46

Post by hnlmorg »

f6v wrote: post #38
hnlmorg wrote: post #18

Articles like these are complete garbage for any practical extrapolation and thus only really written as ad pieces. Why? Because: - cost of living isn’t taken into account - and even if it were, the cost of living varies wildly from one city to another. So you’d need less generalised results - converting everything to USD makes no sense when the article is supposed to be about European countries. And since exchange r…

Cost of living doesn’t have to be taken into account in a salary analysis because everyone has a different cost of living. It’s not called a “quality of life” analysis.

Because everyone has a different cost of living is exactly why it needs to be taken into account when comparing salaries.

If it were just reporting regional salaries then that would be different. But when you then generalise salaries across lots of regions with wildly different cost of living, then you either need to adjust for regional variations or add massive disclaimers that these are superficial figures and cannot be used as a basis of comparison.

Re: Europe data salary benchmark 2023

#47

Post by [deleted] »

nivenkos wrote: post #34
leppr wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are they really that pitiful compared to the global average? I think that in the English-speaking tech sphere we are just too inclined to compare to the US. But compared to the rest of the world, and outside of a few small low-tax hubs (Singapore, UAE, etc), they're quite in line with the rest of the job market. (I do think we're getting fleeced in absolute terms, but that's nothing specific to the tech industry)

Kinda, the benefit in the UAE is that the taxes are lower, but it's really company-dependent since you have fewer worker protections. I turned down a job offer there because it's so far away, so if you lost the job (see recent layoffs), it'd be a nightmare. But Australia and Canada both have slightly better salaries too (just not US-level).

[deleted]

Re: Europe data salary benchmark 2023

#48

Post by hnlmorg »

ZephyrBlu wrote: post #44
hnlmorg wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But this article IS an about median wages and not specifically about the top percentile! > Lower COL does not make up for $139k USD It can if property prices for those top percentiles are more than $139k cheaper. My house is worth literally twice the price of my mother in laws house and she lives in a larger property. The only difference is she’s at the north end of England and I’m in the south. Cost of living can va…

According to the US government, the average software developer in the US earns $120k/yr: https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes151252.htm . In this data, which is focused on tech companies and the tech hubs in Europe (London, Berlin, Amsterdam, etc), the median salary for a senior developer is only $113k. In other words, above average EU companies in HCOL cities still pay less than the average US developer (Any COL and…

Nobody is disputing the raw numbers. The point being made is those numbers are meaningless without taking more variables into account.

If you earn more but have less disposable income each month than someone doing the same job in London then who gives a shit if you have more zeros on your pay check?

That’s the crux of the matter here. Comparing salaries is meaningless if you don’t factor in who your disposable income is after expenses.

Or to put it another way, if you were a business then you cannot think of yourself as an angel invested unicorn start up. So you have to make a personal profit each month. If your outgoings are greater then you need to charge more. It’s simple mathematics.

> editing in house prices is blatantly moving the goalposts.

How is paying rent / mortgage not part of one’s cost of living?

This is the literal point everyone has been making to you from the start!

Edit: I’m going to throw in the towel now. Literally every European has explained why this article is worthless for any real comparison. But obviously you, as an American, know better than us, who work and live in Europe, about just how much money we take home each month from our jobs in Europe.

Re: Europe data salary benchmark 2023

#49

Post by balfirevic »

mensetmanusman wrote: post #4
cianmm wrote: post #2

Interesting article, but they don't link to the data, just suggest that you build the dataset yourself with Google. I'm also not seeing mention of cost of living. > For ease of comparison we’ve converted all numbers to USD ($). That seems a strange choice, given that this is Europe. The target market for this blog post must not be Europeans.

Thankfully (and tragically) the calculation between euro and dollar is very easy now.

Why is that tragical?

Re: Europe data salary benchmark 2023

#50

Post by ZephyrBlu »

hnlmorg wrote: post #48
ZephyrBlu wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to the US government, the average software developer in the US earns $120k/yr: https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes151252.htm . In this data, which is focused on tech companies and the tech hubs in Europe (London, Berlin, Amsterdam, etc), the median salary for a senior developer is only $113k. In other words, above average EU companies in HCOL cities still pay less than the average US developer (Any COL and…

Nobody is disputing the raw numbers. The point being made is those numbers are meaningless without taking more variables into account. If you earn more but have less disposable income each month than someone doing the same job in London then who gives a shit if you have more zeros on your pay check? That’s the crux of the matter here. Comparing salaries is meaningless if you don’t factor in who your disposable income…

It seems like you are disputing raw numbers.

Most of the US has lower COL than London: https://www.mylifeelsewhere.com/cost-of-living/united-states....

According to BLS and this data, the average US developer (Who has lower COL) makes about the same as a senior developer in London (120k vs 126k).

Therefore, even taking COL into account, an average US developer makes more than a above average, senior London developer (This dataset is skewed towards tech companies).

It's simple mathematics.

PS: house prices in most of the US are also highly likely to be lower than in London.

PPS: I'm not american, nor do I live in the US.

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