Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Temple Student Strike Turns Ugly as School Ends Some Tuition Aid

phillymag.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 265 posts

Re: Temple Student Strike Turns Ugly as School Ends Some Tuition Aid

#41

Post by giantg2 »

TillE wrote: post #5

As various lawyers have commented on Twitter, this seems like an insanely blatant violation of labor laws. Just a straight up written confession of illegal retaliation. Unless they have some obscure exemption that nobody else knows about, I cannot imagine how the university's legal counsel signed off on this.

I'm not familiar with these Twitter lawyers. Why would suspension of pay and benefits be illegal?

"Generally speaking, those who are part of a legal strike cannot lose their health insurance or other benefits. While they may not receive them during a strike, these benefits must generally be made available to workers after they return to their jobs."

Re: Temple Student Strike Turns Ugly as School Ends Some Tuition Aid

#42

Post by jahewson »

chrisabrams wrote: post #29
akavi wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are companies not allowed to stop paying wages to striking employees? Or is it that tuition remission is viewed as distinct from wages legally?

Students are not employees.

In 2016 the NLRB ruled that graduate students who teach are, in fact, employees. Note that they have the right to even form a union.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2016/08/2...

Edit: A slight twist on this is that Temple University is a public university and and the NLRB in theory does not have jurisdiction over other parts of the government. PA law, however, offers similar protection. This is off to court for sure.

Re: Temple Student Strike Turns Ugly as School Ends Some Tuition Aid

#43

Post by munk-a »

TillE wrote: post #5

As various lawyers have commented on Twitter, this seems like an insanely blatant violation of labor laws. Just a straight up written confession of illegal retaliation. Unless they have some obscure exemption that nobody else knows about, I cannot imagine how the university's legal counsel signed off on this.

There are reports from strikers trying to refill medication that the medical benefit suspension has already unilaterally gone into effect. The university has gone ahead with their threats in that regard (which is especially shitty since it's pretty standard in the US to give employees a health insurance grace period on termination).

I am really confused about what the university thinks they're going to get out of these actions.

Re: Temple Student Strike Turns Ugly as School Ends Some Tuition Aid

#44

Post by giantg2 »

nightpool wrote: post #36
akavi wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are companies not allowed to stop paying wages to striking employees? Or is it that tuition remission is viewed as distinct from wages legally?

Yes, they're separate from wages that graduate students earn. Roughly—graduate students attend college for free, but for financial aid / regulatory / internal budgeting reasons the college can't say they attend for free, so they instead set extremely high tuition numbers and then "pay" that tuition for the students, from one hand of the college to the other hand. But also AIUI Temple took away the whole of the tuitio…

But it's not pay. Their stipend would be pay. The tuition would be a benefit, just as tuition assistance programs at companies are benefits. It's perfectly legal to suspend benefits and pay during a strike, but they must be reinstated when the strike is over. Right or wrong, it seems primia facie legal.

Edit: why disagree? What have I said that's factually incorrect? Please, educate us all and add to the discussion in the spirit of the forum.

Re: Temple Student Strike Turns Ugly as School Ends Some Tuition Aid

#45

Post by sonofhans »

> “Any Temple employee that decides to strike forfeits their pay and complete benefits package,” explained Temple University senior vice president and chief operating officer Ken Kaiser.

Here's the problem -- that's a business solution. This decision is intended to benefit Temple the business, not the Temple the university. The administration is too busy filing TPS reports to realize that they're curating something actually important -- the future of this country's youth.

In other ways it's just cookie-cutter union-busting from coal-mining days, 120 years ago, and I expect in the long term it will work just as well (i.e., not).

Re: Temple Student Strike Turns Ugly as School Ends Some Tuition Aid

#46

Post by tomrod »

tssva wrote: post #25
jurassic wrote: post #15

Good luck to Temple operating without the grad student labor. They are the backbone of all major universities.

80% of their grad student labor is continuing to work.

Meaning one in five classes will lack an instructor or grader, one in five professors will lack people they can pile work onto, and the placement rates this year might be abysmal, tanking their program in the future.

It's a strike. Don't confuse percent striking with impact of the strike. A 20% haircut on essential, low paid laborers is a big haircut.

Re: Temple Student Strike Turns Ugly as School Ends Some Tuition Aid

#47

Post by ninjagoo »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #35
TillE wrote: post #5

As various lawyers have commented on Twitter, this seems like an insanely blatant violation of labor laws. Just a straight up written confession of illegal retaliation. Unless they have some obscure exemption that nobody else knows about, I cannot imagine how the university's legal counsel signed off on this.

Can you point to some of those Twitter comments? I'm honestly curious of which labor laws they are violating. For example, I just did a search regarding healthcare for striking workers, and there is no federal law that prevents cancelling healthcare, to the point that some congresspeople have introduced bills in the last year to specifically outlaw that (but, to emphasize, those are just bills, they haven't been pass…

Original note below the line. Unfortunately, as pointed out by tptacek [0]:

> The wrinkle is that Temple's employees are public-sector employees, who are exempt from the NLRA --- but they're not necessarily exempt from equivalent Philadelphia law.

tptacek appears to be correct [1]. That said, there is a Pennsylvanian 1970 "Public Employe Relations Act" that could cover unfair practices including retaliation but I can't tell if it is still in force [2]. [3] appears to imply that it is still active.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34733764 [1] https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/the-law/em... [2] https://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/legis/LI/uconsCheck.cfm... [3] https://www.dli.pa.gov/laws-regs/laws/Pages/default.aspx

Original comment: -------------------------------

> I'm honestly curious of which labor laws they are violating

Interfering with Employee Rights. [1]

Discriminating against Employees because of their union activities [2] specifically Grant a benefit to nonstrikers and/or replacements that is withheld from strikers, or impose a burden on strikers that is not placed on nonstrikers or replacements.

[1] https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/the-law/in... [2] https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/the-law/di...

Re: Temple Student Strike Turns Ugly as School Ends Some Tuition Aid

#48

Post by Spivak »

luckylion wrote: post #28
oneoff786 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are not complaining that they are not paid for the period they are working. They are complaining that participating in the strike has revoked their tuition remission for the entire semester. Idiot leader. This will play out incredibly poorly. Grad students put up with more than they ought to already.

Would you still get equity grants and bonuses if you went on strike while working at a normal company?

If they had already been paid out, yes. Company bought you a $10k car in January, you strike in March. The company isn’t allowed to retroactively “unbuy” the car and declare that you now owe them $10k. Even if the condition for keeping the car was a full year’s employment you can’t take it — striking isn’t legally quitting.

Even stronger, if employees usually get an annual bonus but the year of the strike they don’t you might get bitten for retaliation.

Re: Temple Student Strike Turns Ugly as School Ends Some Tuition Aid

#50

Post by munk-a »

fencepost wrote: post #8

Curious about what the university schedule is for withdrawing for the semester, and whether it's feasible for the students to take a semester off.

During COVID temple was gratuitously cruel in allowing students to cancel and forcing in-person teaching. I'd assume any cancellation window is as minimal as possible.
Post reply on HN