Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU • Hacker News Board

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#41

Post by ethbr0 » Thu, Feb 02, 2023, 2:51 PM UTC

can16358p wrote: post #10

We certainly need decentralized systems that cannot be controlled by EU, US, or any government/entity. Privacy is a human right. We probably all know that they will show reasons like "fighting terrorism", "preventing national threats" or "hunting down child pornography" etc, whereas the real motivation is to control people's freedom of speech and communication even though they will 100% deny it. Anyone who is really…

> We probably all know that they will show reasons [...], whereas the real motivation is to control people's freedom of speech and communication even though they will 100% deny it.

I don't think this is how it works, absent an already existent police state.

In democracies, it really is pushed for {good reasons}.

Once built, it's then used by law enforcement, because it exists and gets the job done.

Pretending there's a sinister, organized New World Order (aka "them") with decades-long plans to restrict freedom is fantasy, and doesn't help us target the actual problem.

A lot of bureaucrats and legislators are instead just disorganized, technically clueless, and listen to the loudest and most organized group. Which tends to be intelligence or law enforcement.

TFA rightly calls on citizens to instead be that group, on the side of freedom.

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#42

Post by guy98238710 » Thu, Feb 02, 2023, 2:51 PM UTC

The very purpose of privacy is to break laws. Privacy is the space where laws do not apply.

I don't remember where I heard it, but I really like this definition of privacy. It's a defense against bad laws and there are quite a few of those, including child porn and child abuse laws that actually lead to prosecution of adolescents (sending nudes to each other) and loss of access to medical information for kids (anyone tried to search for "12yo penis" images?).

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#43

Post by gherkinnn » Thu, Feb 02, 2023, 2:52 PM UTC

bartislartfast wrote: post #30

can16358p wrote: post #10

We certainly need decentralized systems that cannot be controlled by EU, US, or any government/entity. Privacy is a human right. We probably all know that they will show reasons like "fighting terrorism", "preventing national threats" or "hunting down child pornography" etc, whereas the real motivation is to control people's freedom of speech and communication even though they will 100% deny it. Anyone who is really…

> Anyone who is really into something illegal will use something alternative anyway. I'm not for more surveillance, but this is the exact argument that people give against gun control

So?

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#44

Post by ben_w » Thu, Feb 02, 2023, 2:52 PM UTC

jiriknesl wrote: post #16

988747 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, seems like one of the reasons for Brexit was ability to do even more surveillance and other totalitarian practices without EU interfering. Not surprising given the fact that UK is one of the Five Eyes.

Do you have proof for such a claim?

"Seems like" doesn't need proof, it is clearly opinion.

"the fact that UK is one of the Five Eyes" is attested to on the NSA's own domain: https://www.nsa.gov/Helpful-Links/NSA-FOIA/Declassification-...

…although the "and that's bad" part of Five Eyes is tied to what Snowden released.

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#45

Post by random_upvoter » Thu, Feb 02, 2023, 2:53 PM UTC

The European leaders talk big about being the protectors of democracy and yet all the time things get pushed through that literally nobody wants.

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#46

Post by DoingIsLearning » Thu, Feb 02, 2023, 2:56 PM UTC

dijit wrote: post #26

DoingIsLearning wrote: post #20

As a pro-EU citizen I feel more and more inclined to agree on some of the Brexit rhetoric. Commissioners have shown multiple times that they are too permeable to lobbying, too willing to water down tough environmental regulation, and too keen on 'security' surveillance. So far the EU parliament members have balanced the act with some sanity. But the power and lack of transparency of the EC both with regards to lobbyi…

EU Parliament has nothing to do with this proposal. It's proposed by the EU Commission, and such things have been struck down by the Parliament before. Also: Britain hardly has any leg to stand on regarding privacy (which is something the EU usually has a focus on[0]). Did you forget the Snoopers Charter[1]? That isn't a proposal. That's law. [0]: https://gdpr.eu [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investigatory_Power…

I am making the point that the parliament votes, and _rejects_ proposals that overreach.

My point is not Britain as an example, but that one of the Brexit rhetoric points was the rah rah 'unelected officials'.

Arguably we both know that EC comissioners are appointed by democratic governments but we see multiple times how permeable EC commisioners are:

1. Surveillance proposals such as posted in this thread

2. Net Neutrality exemptions - allowing Facebook/Youtube/et al. 'zero ratings' on metered connections

3. SUPD with guidelines that have so many Plastic exceptions that basically only q-tips and plastic forks got banned. Nestle, Coca-Cola, all the supermarket wrapping remain untouched.

4. 'Green Deal' was completely watered down on implementation. [0]

[0] https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/mar/06/exxonmobil-...

Over and over they start with strong technocrat proposals and then cave in to business lobby.

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#47

Post by bpfrh » Thu, Feb 02, 2023, 2:56 PM UTC

guy98238710 wrote: post #42

The very purpose of privacy is to break laws. Privacy is the space where laws do not apply. I don't remember where I heard it, but I really like this definition of privacy. It's a defense against bad laws and there are quite a few of those, including child porn and child abuse laws that actually lead to prosecution of adolescents (sending nudes to each other) and loss of access to medical information for kids (anyone…

No privacy can also be that you vote for measure x but nobody knows that but you, e.g. you can have an opinion/hobby without anyone knowing about it but you and people you trust.

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#48

Post by wizzwizz4 » Thu, Feb 02, 2023, 2:56 PM UTC

bartislartfast wrote: post #30

can16358p wrote: post #10

We certainly need decentralized systems that cannot be controlled by EU, US, or any government/entity. Privacy is a human right. We probably all know that they will show reasons like "fighting terrorism", "preventing national threats" or "hunting down child pornography" etc, whereas the real motivation is to control people's freedom of speech and communication even though they will 100% deny it. Anyone who is really…

> Anyone who is really into something illegal will use something alternative anyway. I'm not for more surveillance, but this is the exact argument that people give against gun control

Unless you're a gunsmith, it's not really comparable. Anyone with a sufficiently-powerful desk calculator can use illegal encryption, but not everyone can procure an illegal firearm.

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#49

Post by supermatt » Thu, Feb 02, 2023, 2:57 PM UTC

ecmascript wrote: post #12

maxehmookau wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EU commissioners propose laws, they don't vote for them. The EU parliament will probably reject this. As a brit, let me tell you that leaving the EU will not solve this problem. Your local politicians will just do that anyway.

I do not think so, Swedens population has a history of rejecting mass surveillance ideas and lot's of privacy advocating stuff has come from Sweden like Mullvad and The Pirate Bay. Anyway, it is way easier for a citizen to affect your local politician rather than some other random countries politicians that don't care about you.

> Swedens population has a history of rejecting mass surveillance ideas

What about the Swedish NDRE, which was found by the ECHR to violate personal privacy, and when urged to correct it they instead extended it? (as per the article).

Re: Stop the proposal on mass surveillance of the EU

#50

Post by ur-whale » Thu, Feb 02, 2023, 2:57 PM UTC

raxxorraxor wrote: post #2

The best way to deal with this is non-compliance and there need to be technical solutions to deny such attempts. One major factor that works against users is central authentication. Schemes like oauth2 might bring convenience and security in many cases, but will endanger net freedom overall. Google just added age restriction on blogger. Result is that you need to provide Google with ID information to access some cont…

> The best way to deal with this is non-compliance and there need to be technical solutions to deny such attempts.

I disagree.

While these are good to have, they are not enough.

The reason is always the same: if you are found to be using the circumventing tech., you'll likely be in breach of the law, which will give the goons a legitimate reason to come and harass you.

In a civilized country, that can translate into a fine, community service, etc...

In the borderlands, it'll land you in jail or worse.