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Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

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Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#41

Post by maegul »

seydor wrote: post #2

The moment in which techies realize that they became the mainstream, and counterculture is elsewhere.

In my time hanging out on Mastodon, I feel like I’m seeing this play out.

Many people who openly identify as “tech” people asking for new features, more or less complaining about the resistance to such new features and arguing that the cultural resistance doesn’t make sense.

Now these tech people tend to also be new to mastodon. But they also seem pretty oblivious to the fact that they are the mainstream which many on the platform tried to avoid or establish a counter culture from. They don’t seem to realise that leaving Twitter in 2022 was a comparatively mainstream thing to do, and that the resistance they meet often has a point or perspective that they haven’t even thought of and is coming from people who are just as technically inclined and informed but just don’t tie that to their identity so tightly or openly.

Broad generalisations, but I think it’s definitely playing out to some extent.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#42

Post by AmericanChopper »

TheCapeGreek wrote: post #37
nxmnxm99 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

The voices may be loud online, but it's definitely not "normal" culture.

My bank decorates rainbow ATMs during pride month. A block away from my house my local council has created a rainbow street crossing. I don’t think it’s possible to get more mainstream than that.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#43

Post by ArnoVW »

adamcharnock wrote: post #20

I'm pretty sure I've been existing in a number of counter-cultures for the last decade or two. These have been either linked to my identity or physical location, I couldn't have properly experienced them through consuming media on the subject. Certainly all required an active choice and/or lifestyle change on my part. Maybe people mean something else by counter-culture, but here are examples from my life: - Freelanci…

My understanding of counterculture is that it 'counters'. I.e. it inherently searches to change or influence the dominant culture.

Your examples do show that we are (thankfully) not a monoculture. But they place themselves outside of our culture, instead trying to influence.

A good example of counter culture is BLM, Extinction Rebellion or Occupy Wallstreet.

Only thing: those are movements, not cultures. And they are, IMHO, generally ephemeral.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#44

Post by jacooper »

> Because social media services are now the promoters of mainstream culture, that culture is effectively fueled and guarded by metric-driven algorithms

And political and cultural biases, that's something not really mentioned enough when talking about algorithmic goals.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#45

Post by misnome »

AmericanChopper wrote: post #42
TheCapeGreek wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The voices may be loud online, but it's definitely not "normal" culture.

My bank decorates rainbow ATMs during pride month. A block away from my house my local council has created a rainbow street crossing. I don’t think it’s possible to get more mainstream than that.

Taping a nail to your jacket doesn’t make you Punk.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#46

Post by adamcharnock »

nxmnxm99 wrote: post #35
adamcharnock wrote: post #20

I'm pretty sure I've been existing in a number of counter-cultures for the last decade or two. These have been either linked to my identity or physical location, I couldn't have properly experienced them through consuming media on the subject. Certainly all required an active choice and/or lifestyle change on my part. Maybe people mean something else by counter-culture, but here are examples from my life: - Freelanci…

[flagged]

I suppose it is counter-culture in a universe where people dismiss it as being hedonism.

And while hedonism may be a side-effect in some situations, even that comes from eschewing the standards of wider society. I'd argue that is the definition of counter-culture.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#47

Post by cfltlayoffs »

mellosouls wrote: post #27
cfltlayoffs wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are the great creative works you identify with the alt-right? I know lots of great leftist artists, musicians, etc. but I don't see alt-righters making a lot of daring indie cinema for instance.

I'm strictly considering the definition as "an alternative to dominant [as opposed to popular] opinion and social mores". I'd probably agree the bulk of indier-than-thou creations are produced by people on the left (not all of whom demand we also bow to their political interpretation of the world); some of the work excellent, most of it perhaps not.

That's not what the article is about. The article is about creative content, and how YouTube content is aesthetically all the same. Jordan Peterson videos have the same stupid thumbnails as all other clickbait.

People have said it in the thread, but counter-culture is really defined retrospectively. You look at the movements that existed on the periphery but later inspired the mainstream. Velvet Underground wasn't selling millions of records, but everyone who started a band listened to them. Lou Reed is pretty indier than thou.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#48

Post by specialist »

trabant00 wrote: post #11

> we have a counterculture — many of them, in fact — but they are systematically excluded from seeping into the mainstream I don't understand this and by extension the entire article. Counterculture is by definition outside of mainstream. It would just be culture and not anti otherwise. This sounds like semantics but then that is what I think the entire article is, and imho it is wrong.

Ya. My noob understanding of these things is that there is no culture without counterculture. Because we can only understand things, like culture, identity, and self, in contrast to other things.

From Gioia's OC:

> A sense of sameness pervades the creative world ...

aka "Kids these days..."

I've been hearing this exact same criticism for as long as I remember.

One observation (McLuhan? Warhol?), using the example of da Vinci's Mona Lisa, which made some sense to me:

Modern tech makes reproduction trivial. So any original content quickly becomes ubiquitous. Separating content from original creator. Thereby mooting any of original intention or meaning or esthetic or whatever.

In other words, everything popular becomes banal.

My example, from the 90s era new age fads, I always thought of the yin-yang symbol showing up every where. Especially as tattoos. Oh so original.

Further, I think this also helps explain the disappointment about "selling out". It's a rare thing for a creator to become popular, not wear out their welcome, and retain their original fan base.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#49

Post by ianai »

ArnoVW wrote: post #43
adamcharnock wrote: post #20

I'm pretty sure I've been existing in a number of counter-cultures for the last decade or two. These have been either linked to my identity or physical location, I couldn't have properly experienced them through consuming media on the subject. Certainly all required an active choice and/or lifestyle change on my part. Maybe people mean something else by counter-culture, but here are examples from my life: - Freelanci…

My understanding of counterculture is that it 'counters'. I.e. it inherently searches to change or influence the dominant culture. Your examples do show that we are (thankfully) not a monoculture. But they place themselves outside of our culture, instead trying to influence. A good example of counter culture is BLM, Extinction Rebellion or Occupy Wallstreet. Only thing: those are movements, not cultures. And they are…

google: coun·ter·cul·ture /ˈkoun(t)ərˌkəlCHər/ Learn to pronounce noun noun: counterculture; plural noun: countercultures; noun: counter-culture; plural noun: counter-cultures a way of life and set of attitudes opposed to or at variance with the prevailing social norm. "the idealists of the 60s counterculture"
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