Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Can native speakers of a language even think they have deponent verbs without having another language to compare to? Yes: it’s all based on the syntax of the single language in question. Latin has very distinct active and passive conjugations [0]; we know they’re active and passive because of the effect they have on the case assignations. Deponent verbs are those which cannot occur in the active conjugations. More…
> Deponent verbs are those which cannot occur in the active conjugations. That makes more sense. I learned deponent as "Active meaning, passive conjugation". It's only the "meaning" part that I think is subjective and/or relative.
The Passive in English (2011)
41–50 of 65 posts
Re: The Passive in English (2011)
#42Earlier quoted context omitted.
I speak French and studied Latin. We have so many language oddities (and of course 'exceptions confirm the rule') that we're not so quick to judge English. The case of 'naître' is interesting. Naître is mostly used in the past (I/he was born). The direct translation is also in French its common past form 'Je suis né', which would also be the same as a passive voice, though in the present ('I am born' but the meaning…
As a French speaker, do you feel that 'manquer' is the wrong way around (subject and object reversed)? Or does English have it backward? It's easy enough to just flip subject and object when translating, but I never gave much thought to how it would work in the passive voice. I tried a few examples with Google Translate, but perhaps it's even more confused than I am: I miss him. => Il me manque. He misses me. => Il m…
I'd expect French and Italian to be similar here.
Re: The Passive in English (2011)
#43In Latin, deponent verbs are verbs which are written in the passive form but have an active meaning. The textbook I used said there are no deponent verbs in English. But it got me thinking, it must all be relative. Can native speakers of a language even think they have deponent verbs without having another language to compare to? English has "to be born". You could argue that it's passive (the active is "to bear"), b…
Can you please explain? I don't see this verb being used in active voice almost at all.
Re: The Passive in English (2011)
#44Earlier quoted context omitted.
I speak French and studied Latin. We have so many language oddities (and of course 'exceptions confirm the rule') that we're not so quick to judge English. The case of 'naître' is interesting. Naître is mostly used in the past (I/he was born). The direct translation is also in French its common past form 'Je suis né', which would also be the same as a passive voice, though in the present ('I am born' but the meaning…
As a French speaker, do you feel that 'manquer' is the wrong way around (subject and object reversed)? Or does English have it backward? It's easy enough to just flip subject and object when translating, but I never gave much thought to how it would work in the passive voice. I tried a few examples with Google Translate, but perhaps it's even more confused than I am: I miss him. => Il me manque. He misses me. => Il m…
>'Il me manque' = 'he's missing to me' This seems logical to me. The French 'me' in this case is a dative or 'indirect object' form.
>He's missing me (while shooting at me) = il me manque The French 'me' in this case is an accusative or 'direct object' form.
The passive voice 'Je suis manqué par lui' = 'I am missed by him' /'Il est manqué par moi' = 'He is missed by me' would be unusual in French and necessarily 'directly transitive', so referring to missing someone with a pistol for example.
The difference between the two can be made by using the 3rd person or the indirect complement. >Il me manque (I long for him) => Il lui manque (he/she misses him, the dative 'lui' being epicene) >Il me manque (He missed me, as with a pistol) => il le manque (he misses him, as with a pistol)
'Il me manque' (I long for him) can be developed into 'Il manque à moi' (he's missing to me). 'Il me manque' (he misses me while shooting at me) cannot. This intuitive trick is taught to children so they can make the difference in more complicated cases, but it doesn't work well with second language students.
Re: The Passive in English (2011)
#45In Latin, deponent verbs are verbs which are written in the passive form but have an active meaning. The textbook I used said there are no deponent verbs in English. But it got me thinking, it must all be relative. Can native speakers of a language even think they have deponent verbs without having another language to compare to? English has "to be born". You could argue that it's passive (the active is "to bear"), b…
"To get married" might be analyzed as a deponent verb too, but you can also say it's parallel to "to get ready".
Re: The Passive in English (2011)
#46Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Can native speakers of a language even think they have deponent verbs without having another language to compare to? Yes: it’s all based on the syntax of the single language in question. Latin has very distinct active and passive conjugations [0]; we know they’re active and passive because of the effect they have on the case assignations. Deponent verbs are those which cannot occur in the active conjugations. More…
> Deponent verbs are those which cannot occur in the active conjugations. That makes more sense. I learned deponent as "Active meaning, passive conjugation". It's only the "meaning" part that I think is subjective and/or relative.
> That makes more sense.
It's also not quite correct; Latin deponent verbs don't have finite active forms, or active infinitives, but they may have active participles.
As to whether it makes sense to distinguish "active meaning" from the form of the verb...
There is an important piece of Latin syntax exclusively available to deponent verbs, which justifies the description of "active meaning".
Latin has three tenses, past, present, and future. An ordinary Latin verb has a full set of active and passive forms for each of two aspects in each tense.
But a Latin verb only has four participles. They are traditionally known as: present active, perfect passive, future active, and future passive. This is a far cry from the twelve you'd expect. (3 tenses × 2 aspects × 2 voices.) We'll ignore aspect, but the fact that the active voice is missing in the "past tense" in Latin's participial system has a very interesting consequence.
The Latin verb sequor means "follow". It is deponent, and you might choose to think of it as meaning "be led". However, its perfect participle secutus might mean one of two things:
1. It could mean "having followed", a perfect active participial form which is not available to non-deponent Latin verbs. On the analysis where there's no such thing as "active meaning", this is the only interpretation that it should be possible for secutus to have. If sequi [present passive infinitive] means "to follow" and not "to be followed", then secutus [perfect passive participle] should mean "having followed" and not "having been followed".
2. But in fact secutus might also mean "having been followed", passivizing the meaning of the already-grammatically-passive verb. This strongly suggests that native speakers of Latin thought of sequor in terms similar to "passive form, active meaning".
The other reason you might think of deponents as having "active meaning" is that they take direct objects. This is a weaker line of argument, since it's possible for a verb to take multiple direct objects, so there's no real problem with the passive form of such a verb (with two original objects) promoting one of them to subject and keeping the other one as an object.
Compare English "I was given a gift", where I is promoted from its position as primary direct object in "[He] gave me a gift", versus "A gift was given to me", where the only direct object of "[He] gave a gift to me" is promoted.
Re: The Passive in English (2011)
#47In Latin, deponent verbs are verbs which are written in the passive form but have an active meaning. The textbook I used said there are no deponent verbs in English. But it got me thinking, it must all be relative. Can native speakers of a language even think they have deponent verbs without having another language to compare to? English has "to be born". You could argue that it's passive (the active is "to bear"), b…
> English has "to be born". You could argue that it's passive (the active is "to bear"), but it's not how the word is used. Can you please explain? I don't see this verb being used in active voice almost at all.
Re: The Passive in English (2011)
#48Earlier quoted context omitted.
I speak French and studied Latin. We have so many language oddities (and of course 'exceptions confirm the rule') that we're not so quick to judge English. The case of 'naître' is interesting. Naître is mostly used in the past (I/he was born). The direct translation is also in French its common past form 'Je suis né', which would also be the same as a passive voice, though in the present ('I am born' but the meaning…
As a French speaker, do you feel that 'manquer' is the wrong way around (subject and object reversed)? Or does English have it backward? It's easy enough to just flip subject and object when translating, but I never gave much thought to how it would work in the passive voice. I tried a few examples with Google Translate, but perhaps it's even more confused than I am: I miss him. => Il me manque. He misses me. => Il m…
I miss him => Il me manque.
He misses me => Je lui manque.
Passive forms aren't used. However you may use the quite old-fashioned "languir" as an alternative form:
I am missed by him => Il se languit de moi.
He is missed by me => Je me languit de lui.
Re: The Passive in English (2011)
#49I felt the essay was undercut by overcomplicated and repetitive explanation. The passive voice is pretty easily identified.
> The passive voice is pretty easily identified. Apparently many people who are supposed to know how, don't. Take a look at the "terrible example" the article links to in section 5: https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2922
Re: The Passive in English (2011)
#50Earlier quoted context omitted.
The hate is often justified. I write in English about German bureaucracy for non-native speakers from all over the world. Using active voice in the second person makes instructions far clearer if you have a tenuous grasp of the language. You know exactly who does what. I also find active sentences easier to parse in languages I'm not fluent in.
Out of curiosity, is your work publicly available? It sounds interesting.