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Don't write on the whiteboard

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Re: Don't write on the whiteboard

#41

Post by ljlolel »

joshsegall wrote: post #4

The title doesn't do the article justice. As an interviewer myself I think it's terrible advice. Certainly if you think it'll make or break your interview go ahead and ask to write on paper, but thinking through problems and expressing them on a whiteboard is an important skill at a lot of companies. Many of his other points are good, although a lot of it boils down to being a top notch developer and letting it show…

Thanks for not just talking about Whiteboards! That's just the hook and intro!

I agree. I think high-level planning and design is a great use of whiteboards in the workplace. Code under time pressure, not as much.

Re: Don't write on the whiteboard

#42

Post by socratic »

edw519 wrote: post #9

Sorry OP, I realize that you're just trying to be helpful sharing what's worked for you and I appreciate that, but frankly, I hate posts like this... I think the best preparation for any interview is to simply get good at what you do. All the rest is window dressing that distracts from that goal. Every minute spent practicing interviewing would be better spent building stuff. The natural byproduct of this will be exe…

Would you argue that students should not study for standardized tests (e.g., SAT, GRE, ACT) as well, because they should have learned the (restricted set of) material on the test in their classes?

Re: Don't write on the whiteboard

#43

Post by ljlolel »

jader201 wrote: post #32
thebandrews wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry Ed, but the best preparation for any interview is not simply getting good at what you do. Being good at what you do is a given. But there is an art to interviewing. I have bombed interviews not because of a lack of ability, but because of my failure to understand interview dynamics.

This may be true, to an extent, but to me, the best interviews do a good job at honing in on how good you are at what you do. Good interview skills only benefit you in one area -- how good you are at interviewing. Once somebody hires me, how good I am at interviewing serves no purpose to my employer. And smart companies recognize this, and adjust their interviewing process to get to what's important.

Is there anything I wrote that requires you to spend hours on something that is only useful for interviewing?

I specifically say the opposite, don't practice whiteboard interviewing.

Edit: who would down vote this? Edit edit: thanks for the explanation jader

Re: Don't write on the whiteboard

#44

Post by bethling »

ptmx wrote: post #39
random42 wrote: post #5

From an interviewer's perspective, the whiteboard gives me a chance to intervene to correct, explain, or provide hints, to the interviewee sooner/at the right time, which is not possible in pen-paper solutions, as I cannot see what the interviewee is doing till she shows me her work, unless I sit at the same side of the table as herself, which is odd for general discussion/talking. My advice to interviewees:- Practic…

Perhaps I'm just neurotic, but I do find it uncomfortable to write code with someone scrutinizing my work. When figuring out how to implement an efficient algorithm, I find that it's often helpful to perform exploratory steps before actually writing the algorithm. For instance, when I attempt a projecteuler puzzle that I don't immediately know the solution to, I'll usually try to compute the desired result for a few…

As an interviewer, I'd much rather see your intermediate steps - the messy parts, etc. I feel like I can get a better idea about how you work and think. Interview questions (for me) aren't about "can you solve this" they're more about trying to see how you work. I ask questions about decisions you made, and I like it if you can talk about what you're thinking.

Interview problems are contrived. I don't care if you stumble a little bit. Heck, I'm always happy when I see someone start off the wrong way, notice that something's wrong, take a step back and go a better path.

If you go off with a paper and pen and just give me an answer, I miss out on a lot of that. And even though the anxiety might not show how you normally interact (and I totally understand that) - I can't possibly get any sense as to how you work in a collaborative environment.

I've never had anyone ask to do problems on paper instead of a whiteboard, and I wouldn't refuse it to them - but I just get a feeling that I'd be less likely to be inclined to hiring them - not because of the paper, but because there's no way to see the things that I most like to see.

Re: Don't write on the whiteboard

#45

Post by bethling »

ljlolel wrote: post #35
dfan wrote: post #8

I like seeing interviewees write on a whiteboard because I can see how they're thinking and help them out if I see that they're running into trouble. The point when I give a whiteboard question is to engage interactively with them over the course of ~15 minutes while they solve a problem, not to sit around and be handed a piece of paper at the end. In addition, communicating with peers via whiteboard is a skill that…

So sit next to the person while they write...

The natural posture, position, and size of writing on paper discourages that. It's also essentially impossible for me to step in and point to/mark up their code (and then erase it). The paper takes away any of the collaboration that can occur during an interview. Your code might be better, but I have trouble seeing that you'd be able to project as a positive impression as if you used the whiteboard.

Re: Don't write on the whiteboard

#46

Post by jader201 »

ljlolel wrote: post #43
jader201 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This may be true, to an extent, but to me, the best interviews do a good job at honing in on how good you are at what you do. Good interview skills only benefit you in one area -- how good you are at interviewing. Once somebody hires me, how good I am at interviewing serves no purpose to my employer. And smart companies recognize this, and adjust their interviewing process to get to what's important.

Is there anything I wrote that requires you to spend hours on something that is only useful for interviewing? I specifically say the opposite, don't practice whiteboard interviewing. Edit: who would down vote this? Edit edit: thanks for the explanation jader

My post wasn't a direct response to your article, but rather thebandrews' point about preparing for interviews.

And I'm not saying you shouldn't prepare for interviews. I'm just saying that companies that evaluate a candidate based on how they "perform" in an interview vs. trying to really get to the root of how they would perform in a job are doing themselves a disservice, and may be losing some good candidates because of it.

And if this is happening, that company should change their interviewing strategy to focus more on what's important, and get rid of anything that may get in the way of evaluating that.

Take your point on writing code on a whiteboard vs. writing on a notepad, just for example. To your point, it may be unnatural to code on a whiteboard. But, to me, it's also unnatural to code on a notepad. Actually, I hate handwriting altogether. I prefer typing a thousand times over. So in order for a company to really see how I code, they would hand me a laptop, or even better, allow me to use my own.

Of course, there are arguments to whether that would even be a truly accurate evaluation. My point is -- and again, this isn't necessarily in direct response to your post -- that good employers know how to get to the root of someones abilities, without letting these interview-specific strategies get in the way.

Edit: Disclaimer, I did not vote you down. :)

Re: Don't write on the whiteboard

#47

Post by lmkg »

edw519 wrote: post #9

Sorry OP, I realize that you're just trying to be helpful sharing what's worked for you and I appreciate that, but frankly, I hate posts like this... I think the best preparation for any interview is to simply get good at what you do. All the rest is window dressing that distracts from that goal. Every minute spent practicing interviewing would be better spent building stuff. The natural byproduct of this will be exe…

What you're saying is how interviews should work: a pure talent evaluation, unaffected by any non-job-related skills. However, in practice, interviews don't necessarily work that way. Spending a couple of minutes training on presentation skills can make you much more effective at communicating just how awesome your actual abilities are, far more than the equivalent time expenditure in getting marginally more awesome.

You can pretend that the world is perfect, or you can take steps to deal with the fact that it is not. Now tell me, which of those behaviors would you want from the programmer you want to hire? ;)

Re: Don't write on the whiteboard

#48

Post by calibraxis »

edw519 wrote: post #9

Sorry OP, I realize that you're just trying to be helpful sharing what's worked for you and I appreciate that, but frankly, I hate posts like this... I think the best preparation for any interview is to simply get good at what you do. All the rest is window dressing that distracts from that goal. Every minute spent practicing interviewing would be better spent building stuff. The natural byproduct of this will be exe…

This is the first article I've seen which mentions something that should be fairly obvious to interviewers — expecting people to code on whiteboards is a common mistake. As an interviewer, I totally cringe when I imagine filtering out good people this way.

(I say that as someone who enjoys interview puzzles, and have always succeeded at them. But that pleasure's probably pathological. For many people, it's a nerve-wracking ritual which pointlessly damages self-esteem. As a gatekeeper, my job is to help them succeed at my silly little games. Assist them in reaching their limits.)

A lot of the mind is in one's hands, as many emacs users might tell you. That intelligence can disappear in the alien environment of the whiteboard, for those unused to it. Many bright people maybe can't even afford a decent whiteboard, and haven't worked in an environment which uses them.

There's a huge amount of good tips for good people to get past the gatekeepers — and negotiate good terms. If you can not just beat the interview, but kill it, you'll often have a more powerful bargaining position.

Re: Don't write on the whiteboard

#49

Post by awt »

edw519 wrote: post #9

Sorry OP, I realize that you're just trying to be helpful sharing what's worked for you and I appreciate that, but frankly, I hate posts like this... I think the best preparation for any interview is to simply get good at what you do. All the rest is window dressing that distracts from that goal. Every minute spent practicing interviewing would be better spent building stuff. The natural byproduct of this will be exe…

I disagree. Experts are known to perform quite badly when they are distracted by stress. In the case of job interview, doing anything out of the ordinary (such as writing on a white board) can cause stress. This diminishes the capacity of your working memory due to increased attention focused on stressors.

Re: Don't write on the whiteboard

#50

Post by stephengillie »

sliverstorm wrote: post #13
jc4p wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're definitely not alone. But, I've found that even if you don't do it, you should still try. During my last interview I brought along a notebook, the day before the interview and the bus ride over to the office I wrote down any question that I could think of in the notebook, even forcing myself to think of extra questions. It got people's attention, I talked with 6 pairs of people and each one pointed it out in o…

Certainly take notes in preparation for an interview. Certainly bring a notebook to an interview. I just don't see this whole "carry a notebook at all times" thing.

Respectfully, what is the benefit to recording your notes and ideas on paper, and using paper at interviews, instead of using txt files in the dropbox folder of the always-connected smartphone in your pocket?
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