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An incomplete guide to stealth addresses

vitalik.eth.limo

41–50 of 54 posts

Re: An incomplete guide to stealth addresses

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Given the uses for crypto in practice, it's a safe bet that the majority of use will be for illegal activities. For the moment, that appears to be a good bet. I'm not aware of any current practical use case for cryptocurrency, that government-backed currencies don't provide, other than purchasing illegal goods and services. That said, government-backed currencies are also used for doing so as well, except cash trans…

Sending money is a pretty clear use case. Ukraine received a bunch of international crypto donations last year, for example. Your lack of imagination doesn't mean something is just for "illegal activities".

> Ukraine received a bunch of international crypto donations last year, for example.

That they can surely use, right, right? Because all that crypto can be easily used for buying stuff, right? right?

In reality it looks like those donations were laundered through an offshore exchange. Someone will always find ways to profit from war.

Re: An incomplete guide to stealth addresses

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sending money is a pretty clear use case. Ukraine received a bunch of international crypto donations last year, for example. Your lack of imagination doesn't mean something is just for "illegal activities".

> Ukraine received a bunch of international crypto donations last year, for example. That they can surely use, right, right? Because all that crypto can be easily used for buying stuff, right? right? In reality it looks like those donations were laundered through an offshore exchange. Someone will always find ways to profit from war.

According to Ukrainian officials, yes, some of their military suppliers did in fact accept crypto directly, and it was quicker and easier than using the banking system.

https://www.coindesk.com/policy/2022/03/07/ukraine-is-buying...

Re: An incomplete guide to stealth addresses

#43
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I philosophically disagree that something known to be used for a crime, or known to make crimes easier, ipso facto means that thing should be banned. I see a lot of benefits to society with privacy solutions like Tornado Cash. I also like paper cash, gold coins, and guns for that matter, all of which have been documented to be used in crimes and all of which are legal. I believe the law requires presumption of innoce…

The discussion you are participating in does not make any philosophical claims, but just states how the law works. A libertarian disagreeing with this on a philosophical is not just obvious, it's also uninteresting.

I linked to several legal arguments as to why the person I’m speaking to is wrong. They are not a lawyer as their blog states. And my philosophical arguments go to the heart of the law, which is how much authority Treasury claims they have vs. what their actual authority is as written.

I don’t even know what your comment adds to the discussion, it is very boring and also uninteresting and perhaps you should exit this thread before you degrade it further.

Re: An incomplete guide to stealth addresses

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Given the uses for crypto in practice, it's a safe bet that the majority of use will be for illegal activities. For the moment, that appears to be a good bet. I'm not aware of any current practical use case for cryptocurrency, that government-backed currencies don't provide, other than purchasing illegal goods and services. That said, government-backed currencies are also used for doing so as well, except cash trans…

Sending money is a pretty clear use case. Ukraine received a bunch of international crypto donations last year, for example. Your lack of imagination doesn't mean something is just for "illegal activities".

>Ukraine received a bunch of international crypto donations last year, for example.

While cryptocurrency was used to donate to Ukraine, a bank transfer or Western Union would have done the trick too -- since no one (except maybe the Russians) would consider such donations criminally actionable.

Which was my point. Sure, foreign remittances, sending money to friends/family and other mechanisms allowing money to be transmitted around the world is certainly a use case for cryptocurrency.

The rub is that for the vast majority of legal transactions (i.e., those that won't raise government hackles), cryptocurrency is currently riskier and less reliable than using a government-backed currency.

That's not a dig at cryptocurrencies. Rather, it's an assessment of the current financial ecosystem. Cryptocurrencies have lots of potential but, like most immature technologies, it's not quite ready for prime time.

As such, the vast majority of folks who choose to use cryptocurrencies as a medium of exchange are those who either don't want their transactions detected by the government (the vast majority of which are those things that raise government hackles) and/or those who are risk tolerant.

Which is why cryptocurrencies are mostly used as a medium of exchange on the fringes of society/legality.

As the technology matures, you'll see cryptocurrencies become more and more mainstream -- even government-backed currencies. Because, in the end, cryptocurrencies are just another form of money.

For now, the primary use case for cryptocurrencies as a medium of exchange is avoidance of government knowledge/involvement. Eventually that will change, but I'll probably be dead[0] before that happens.

[0] If I'm still alive in 2050, I'll be surprised.

Edit: Clarified my estimate for when cryptocurrencies will be pretty mainstream.

Re: An incomplete guide to stealth addresses

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I genuinely don’t see any link between a bomb going off and a privacy protocol used to move financial assets. The link is explained in the post: in both instances, a human is the prime mover. No court in the world draws a distinction between "Joe kills Bob" and "Joe builds a Bob-killing robot that kills Bob." Similarly, no court in the world is likely to draw a distinction between "North Korea launders money" and "…

I philosophically disagree that something known to be used for a crime, or known to make crimes easier, ipso facto means that thing should be banned. I see a lot of benefits to society with privacy solutions like Tornado Cash. I also like paper cash, gold coins, and guns for that matter, all of which have been documented to be used in crimes and all of which are legal. I believe the law requires presumption of innoce…

We are not in meaningful disagreement about these things: the question is not whether the government is justified in banning anything that can be used to do crime (which is everything), but whether the government is justified in banning something that have an efficient cause in crime. That's what Tornado Cash is, and no amount of hemming and hawing around other potential uses meaningfully changes this.

Re: An incomplete guide to stealth addresses

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of this amounts to an "overreach" argument. Again: statutorily , where has the Treasury Department mis-stepped? You'll note that all kinds of entities, including full banks, are on the OFAC list[1]. This doesn't amount to a blanket ban on banking, and "it's just a bank, there are others" is not an argument that anyone finds convincing. [1]: https://sanctionssearch.ofac.treas.gov/

Pretty straightforward — Treasury said we couldn't use a particular computer program rather than interact with a particular entity, and that's outside their authority.

I think you are misunderstanding the Treasury's position. You are free to run the code on your own computer on a VM for a made up Blockchain however many times you want, no problem. You can even run a permissioned version of it yourself, where you and your 40 permissioned friends mix their transactions for privacy, and everyone knows (through, let's say, off chain trust) that none of them are committing crimes, I personally don't think that would be a problem either. However, if you are running the same code on a public Blockchain and mixing your transactions with literal criminals [0], well, that is a crime now.

"Running a computer program" is too vague, and legality of it depends on the context.

[0] since everything on this Blockchain is public, you can easily see proceeds of cybercrime coming into tornado. It's not really a point of contention.

Re: An incomplete guide to stealth addresses

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty straightforward — Treasury said we couldn't use a particular computer program rather than interact with a particular entity, and that's outside their authority.

I think you are misunderstanding the Treasury's position. You are free to run the code on your own computer on a VM for a made up Blockchain however many times you want, no problem. You can even run a permissioned version of it yourself, where you and your 40 permissioned friends mix their transactions for privacy, and everyone knows (through, let's say, off chain trust) that none of them are committing crimes, I per…

> You can even run a permissioned version of it yourself, where you and your 40 permissioned friends mix their transactions for privacy, and everyone knows (through, let's say, off chain trust) that none of them are committing crimes,

Even if you 100% knew that all of the money was legal mixing is money transmission according to the government which means you need to register in every state you operate, register with the federal government, and have a compliance program, or you will get up to 5 years in prison. Hawaladars/various ethnic equivalents especially post 9/11 have learned the rules on money transmission the hard way, even when they literally "know their customers" in a much more real way than banks do. Here's an example where I'm from https://apnews.com/article/yemen-us-news-ap-top-news-mi-stat... - fortunately these guys were spared prison though.

Re: An incomplete guide to stealth addresses

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I philosophically disagree that something known to be used for a crime, or known to make crimes easier, ipso facto means that thing should be banned. I see a lot of benefits to society with privacy solutions like Tornado Cash. I also like paper cash, gold coins, and guns for that matter, all of which have been documented to be used in crimes and all of which are legal. I believe the law requires presumption of innoce…

We are not in meaningful disagreement about these things: the question is not whether the government is justified in banning anything that can be used to do crime (which is everything), but whether the government is justified in banning something that have an efficient cause in crime. That's what Tornado Cash is, and no amount of hemming and hawing around other potential uses meaningfully changes this.

Correct - we are debating the merits and demerits of Tornado Cash for society. My position is it’s helpful and all negatives already have laws that solve them.

Furthermore once the software is no longer gray, it could be embedded via API in many other entities to enable privacy, just as encryption was once taboo and now is everywhere. It’s only the gray nature of this privacy solution that prevents its normalization.

Re: An incomplete guide to stealth addresses

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I genuinely don’t see any link between a bomb going off and a privacy protocol used to move financial assets. The government is not allowed to put a camera in my house and watch me 24/7. Sure, I might be committing crimes inside my house. But unless the government can convince a judge that they suspect me of committing crimes that justify such a camera, they cannot install said camera. Similarly, merely using a techn…

> I genuinely don’t see any link between a bomb going off and a privacy protocol used to move financial assets. The link is explained in the post: in both instances, a human is the prime mover. No court in the world draws a distinction between "Joe kills Bob" and "Joe builds a Bob-killing robot that kills Bob." Similarly, no court in the world is likely to draw a distinction between "North Korea launders money" and "…

Bitcoin from silk road was seized as proceeds of crime. Those btc were actually used in crime. Government later cleaned those coins and auctioned them off.

In this curious land of the free, government can take criminal proceeds and clean and resell it while also claiming the freedom-taxpayers may not express themselves with others in computer code.

I expect Tornado Cash will be found to have the same protections as PGP in the 90s.

Re: An incomplete guide to stealth addresses

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sending money is a pretty clear use case. Ukraine received a bunch of international crypto donations last year, for example. Your lack of imagination doesn't mean something is just for "illegal activities".

>Ukraine received a bunch of international crypto donations last year, for example. While cryptocurrency was used to donate to Ukraine, a bank transfer or Western Union would have done the trick too -- since no one (except maybe the Russians) would consider such donations criminally actionable. Which was my point. Sure, foreign remittances, sending money to friends/family and other mechanisms allowing money to be tra…

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