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Loss of epigenetic information as a cause of mammalian aging

cell.com

41–50 of 57 posts

Re: Loss of epigenetic information as a cause of mammalian aging

#41
post #15
post #11

Isn't the term "epigenetic" about non-DNA information, like in mitochondria etc, i.e. not something recoverable by just scanning DNA more precisely? If so, it doesn't seem reversable?

Why would that make it less reversible? Honestly it's not like it was ever easy to reverse DNA damage. Reversing other kinds of damage might be harder, but unless you have more information it's not clear that it _must_ be.

It's theoretically more reversible, but dependent on identifying epigenetic factors that can practically be counteracted or at least lessened (and don't have significantly adverse side effects.)

In reality, it will probably just mean a bunch of snake oil 'epigenetic health supplements' on the shelves that don't actually do anything.

Re: Loss of epigenetic information as a cause of mammalian aging

#42
post #24

It seems like it should be possible to build a drop-in replacement system for DNA that adds a more robust error detection/correction capability. Each gene gets a checksum at the end and the transcription/translation processes are amended to validate these prior to progressing to building proteins. Obviously it would be more complex than just that but it would be interesting to see how it affects biology. Evolution wo…

Who says you want more robust DNA transfer? I can imagine there was a time before the LUCA where life was a competition between these gene transfer mechanisms. DNA exists for a reason imo, gene mutation is a feature not a bug

For the species yes, for the individual I don't know that the math is that settled.

Re: Loss of epigenetic information as a cause of mammalian aging

#43

> loss of epigenetic information is a reversible cause of aging Ok, so how do we reverse the loss of epigenetic information?

THERE IS AS YET INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER.

Multivac has got its work cut out for it.

Re: Loss of epigenetic information as a cause of mammalian aging

#44
post #3

What makes me somehow believe in the information theory of aging is that old people look "noisy".

Isn’t aging engineered into an organism? This seems self-evident because rats and humans are made of essentially the same biological stuff, but rats live for 2-3 years (and then die of old age) and humans live for 25x that. Maybe this theory explains how organisms “create” aging. It also implies that aging can be slowed or reversed, and the mechanism for doing that is already present in any organism.

Re: Loss of epigenetic information as a cause of mammalian aging

#45
This doesn't test the "epigenetic information theory of aging."

First, there is no survival analysis. How is the mouse younger if it doesn't live longer? Similarly, the OSK "rejuvenated" mice display lower lean muscle mass.

Second, the causality is (willfully?) misinterpreted. The endonuclease used to causes DNA double-strand breaks does NOT directly alter the epigenome. Instead, it induces DNA-damage repair stress. One consequence, of many, is epigenetic (chromatin) dysregulation. DNA damage stress is well known to accelerate aging phenotypes. In fact, David published on how p53 stress from repeated DNA damage - using the same endonuclease setup - initiates a DNA damage response in turn promoting cell-cycle exit and cell elimination [0].

Third, cutting "non-coding" DNA in this case involves cutting specific ribosomes (cell translation machinery). Given that this pressure is constitutive, it's likely that these ribosomes evolve resistance to the nuclease by mutating functional sequences. However, the authors never assessed the mutation and function of these ribosomes.

Lastly, the in vivo AAV transduction efficiency isn't measured. This makes the OSK "rejuvenation" result hard to interpret. All cells get DNA damage (germline edit), but only transduced cells (All the core claims about epigenetic information are either incorrect or grossly misleading. The perturbation, site-specific DNA damage, does not cause only loss of whole-cell epigenetic information. Hard to imagine how this got into Cell. I guess a big name and 20+ figures is all you need these days?

[0] https://doi.org/10.1016/j.devcel.2021.11.018

Re: Loss of epigenetic information as a cause of mammalian aging

#46
post #44
post #3

What makes me somehow believe in the information theory of aging is that old people look "noisy".

Isn’t aging engineered into an organism? This seems self-evident because rats and humans are made of essentially the same biological stuff, but rats live for 2-3 years (and then die of old age) and humans live for 25x that. Maybe this theory explains how organisms “create” aging. It also implies that aging can be slowed or reversed, and the mechanism for doing that is already present in any organism.

It’s better explained by the reverse. Human evolution needed to fight aging harder in order to be successful.

Also, we aren’t made from the same biological stuff, or we would be rats. It’s easy to think of biology in overly simplified terms but cells aren’t legos.

Re: Loss of epigenetic information as a cause of mammalian aging

#47
post #15
post #11

Isn't the term "epigenetic" about non-DNA information, like in mitochondria etc, i.e. not something recoverable by just scanning DNA more precisely? If so, it doesn't seem reversable?

Why would that make it less reversible? Honestly it's not like it was ever easy to reverse DNA damage. Reversing other kinds of damage might be harder, but unless you have more information it's not clear that it _must_ be.

If you have a skin cell that incorrectly differentiated into a mole, how do you reverse it?

You can't just fix the DNA, it must also figure out whether it should become a hair follicle or one of the many subtypes of cells that make up your skin layers. We know that this differentiation seems to be controlled by ion/electrical signals early in life.

So a key question is: Why does differentiation accuracy seem to degrade with aging, and is there anything we can do to stop it?

CRISPR is pretty good at fixing DNA, we definitely need to optimize our use of that tool but at least there's a path. We really don't have a clear path to fix the differentiation/epigenome problem.

Re: Loss of epigenetic information as a cause of mammalian aging

#48
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but "ageing is a result of increasing entropy" is pretty much the same as saying that ageing is caused by the passage of time. The interesting part here is that they narrow down which loss of information is important.

Increasing entropy in a system can be avoided with an external energy source.

Have you considered exposing your cells to a high-energy gamma ray source?

Re: Loss of epigenetic information as a cause of mammalian aging

#49
post #30

> loss of epigenetic information is a reversible cause of aging Ok, so how do we reverse the loss of epigenetic information?

They use three of the four "Yamanaka factors," which are substances that, in combination, turn adult cells back into stem cells.

Yamanaka factors seem to be a reinit mechanism, however that's not enough.

Cell differentiation seems to be similar to Conway's Game of Life where cells differentiate based on neighboring cells. Significant ordered complexity can emerge from simple rules. Now if you go and reset random cells, often it is either a no-op or they pick up the correct state from neighbors, but if you keep doing it, you eventually reset an important cell and break the functionality.

In biology, it likely looks a little more like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-97RhAZhXI

Re: Loss of epigenetic information as a cause of mammalian aging

#50
post #45

This doesn't test the "epigenetic information theory of aging." First, there is no survival analysis. How is the mouse younger if it doesn't live longer? Similarly, the OSK "rejuvenated" mice display lower lean muscle mass. Second, the causality is (willfully?) misinterpreted. The endonuclease used to causes DNA double-strand breaks does NOT directly alter the epigenome. Instead, it induces DNA-damage repair stress.…

I'm interested to see where this line of research goes. Given that this paper was published in Cell, and the preceding one was published in Nature, I think we can rule out gross negligence in the writeup. I can't speak to all your points, but I can speak to a couple.

There was no claim that the whole mouse was rejuvenated, so far as I can tell. The only metrics they presented on actual rejuvenation were some chemical markers in a couple of organs - heart and liver, IIRC. In a CNN interview published ~5 days ago, Sinclair points out that he hasn't yet figured out how to deliver the OSK to the whole organism - which is presumably why he's only demonstrated rejuvenation at very localized sites. He also mentions that another team has figured it out, and did actually manage to extend a mouse's lifespan (see my other post with the CNN link). Thus,

> How is the mouse younger if it doesn't live longer?

It isn't, because it doesn't, because the study didn't aim to show that.

> Yet, the whole organism is "rejuvenated"?

Again, no. That was not the claim, according to the actual published article.

So I think you missed a couple things. Probably not "willfully". I may have the advantage of you, though, because I did manage to find a copy of the Cell article itself (and I did a bit of additional digging).

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