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Trying Out Flipper Zero

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Re: Trying Out Flipper Zero

#41

Post by neilv »

gadders wrote: post #27
garren wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mine was held up by the seizure. I got an email about it, but they were able get it out a month or so later. They were able to work around it, but I don’t recall the details. I think they had a blog post about it.

Probably being overly cynical, but I wonder if some of those flippers were back-doored by NSA or similar like they did to TVs.

No more ridiculous a theory would be that Russian hackers found a way to get many thousands of other hackers around the world to plug in BADUSB/trojan devices. And to also fund their own compromise. :)

(No offense to our Flipper-creating friends. I suspect many hackers can appreciate the interesting and humorous human dynamics that are sometimes at play.)

Re: Trying Out Flipper Zero

#42

Post by out_of_protocol »

nix23 wrote: post #17
bmitc wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do those arguments really hold up though? I get that these devices are sort of the “messenger” in “don’t shoot the messenger”, but still. Security is about appropriate security. A general teenager or thief wanting to cause issues would not know what to do with an SDR and laptop, versus something like the Flipper making it point and click. So now that something is made so readily available, we need to increase the cos…

>Is there an easy solution to improve locks on cars? Public/Private Keys? You know a secure protocol like SSH?

or even simple HMAC if you want to go low-power and brain-dead

Re: Trying Out Flipper Zero

#43

Post by sschueller »

fragmede wrote: post #18
po1nter wrote: post #4

> the Flipper is an awesome device. I'm kinda sad to understand that its successor is Linux based Anyone know where can I find more info on this "successor" I tried googling with no luck.

The HackRF One would be the bigger brother to the Flipper Zero.

HackRF One requires a host computer such as a laptop so I wouldn't compare those to be siblings. More a cyberdeck with an SDR would be a larger sibling like this one: https://hackaday.io/project/183892-cyberdeck1

Re: Trying Out Flipper Zero

#44

Post by plugger »

sschueller wrote: post #43
fragmede wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The HackRF One would be the bigger brother to the Flipper Zero.

HackRF One requires a host computer such as a laptop so I wouldn't compare those to be siblings. More a cyberdeck with an SDR would be a larger sibling like this one: https://hackaday.io/project/183892-cyberdeck1

Have you ever seen the PortaPack? https://github.com/eried/portapack-mayhem

Re: Trying Out Flipper Zero

#45

Post by criddell »

bmitc wrote: post #10
sschueller wrote: post #5

People and companies that are attacking the device because it makes unlocking certain things easy should realize that the issues is not the device but the antiquated vehicles/door locking system that basically uses obscurity for it's security. If you can unlock your car with the flipper zero you can also do it with a ~100 USD SDR and an old laptop.

Do those arguments really hold up though? I get that these devices are sort of the “messenger” in “don’t shoot the messenger”, but still. Security is about appropriate security. A general teenager or thief wanting to cause issues would not know what to do with an SDR and laptop, versus something like the Flipper making it point and click. So now that something is made so readily available, we need to increase the cos…

> Is there an easy solution to improve locks on cars?

Turn off keyless entry and use the mechanical key.

Re: Trying Out Flipper Zero

#46

Post by sschueller »

plugger wrote: post #44
sschueller wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HackRF One requires a host computer such as a laptop so I wouldn't compare those to be siblings. More a cyberdeck with an SDR would be a larger sibling like this one: https://hackaday.io/project/183892-cyberdeck1

Have you ever seen the PortaPack? https://github.com/eried/portapack-mayhem

Ah, forgot about that, yes I guess that could be considered the bigger brother of the flipper zero.

Re: Trying Out Flipper Zero

#47

Post by nextlevelwizard »

bmitc wrote: post #10
sschueller wrote: post #5

People and companies that are attacking the device because it makes unlocking certain things easy should realize that the issues is not the device but the antiquated vehicles/door locking system that basically uses obscurity for it's security. If you can unlock your car with the flipper zero you can also do it with a ~100 USD SDR and an old laptop.

Do those arguments really hold up though? I get that these devices are sort of the “messenger” in “don’t shoot the messenger”, but still. Security is about appropriate security. A general teenager or thief wanting to cause issues would not know what to do with an SDR and laptop, versus something like the Flipper making it point and click. So now that something is made so readily available, we need to increase the cos…

Your average teenager or thief won't know how to pick a lock either, yet everyone installs pick resistant locks instead of cheaper alternatives.

Yes. Your security might have been good enough, but world moves on. Back in the day Triple DES was good enough, but you are very irresponsible if you use it today.

I get that whenever you are looking anything from inside the industry there is constant need to make processes faster and cheaper. I am sure all car manufacturers would immediately remove seat belts and air bags if they could. However is maximizing profit really what society needs? I think we should have more laws and regulations around product security. *All* products should meet some minimum security standard, but until we have some governing body that can enforce this we will from time to time run into issues like with this device where the large company is decade or more behind the world due to neglecting R&D and now they don't want to pay for their mistakes.

Re: Trying Out Flipper Zero

#48

Post by weinzierl »

theshrike79 wrote: post #38
bmitc wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do those arguments really hold up though? I get that these devices are sort of the “messenger” in “don’t shoot the messenger”, but still. Security is about appropriate security. A general teenager or thief wanting to cause issues would not know what to do with an SDR and laptop, versus something like the Flipper making it point and click. So now that something is made so readily available, we need to increase the cos…

There are a bunch of semi-easy tools for lockpicking too and a good percentage of American locks are reeeally bad at thwarting even a novice picker. In worst cases you just need a flat piece of metal. Too many fancy electronic locks can be bypassed with a single magnet placed correctly. https://www.youtube.com/@lockpickinglawyer These devices are the electronic equivalent of a lock-pick. They still need skill and int…

Exactly, and in regard to the parent comment mentioning teenagers: They are exactly the group that needs the Flipper least because they have might not have money but they often have plenty of time.

If anything the Flipper helps to spread the knowledge where the frontier of practical feasibility is to a wider demographic. This demarcation line is far from trivial but the world would be a better place if all of us knew more about what they should be afraid of and where they can chill.

Re: Trying Out Flipper Zero

#49

Post by D13Fd »

nextlevelwizard wrote: post #47
bmitc wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do those arguments really hold up though? I get that these devices are sort of the “messenger” in “don’t shoot the messenger”, but still. Security is about appropriate security. A general teenager or thief wanting to cause issues would not know what to do with an SDR and laptop, versus something like the Flipper making it point and click. So now that something is made so readily available, we need to increase the cos…

Your average teenager or thief won't know how to pick a lock either, yet everyone installs pick resistant locks instead of cheaper alternatives. Yes. Your security might have been good enough, but world moves on. Back in the day Triple DES was good enough, but you are very irresponsible if you use it today. I get that whenever you are looking anything from inside the industry there is constant need to make processes…

> everyone installs pick resistant locks instead of cheaper alternatives.

What geographic area? In the northeast US I've noticed that the cheap, easy to pick locks seem to dominate.

Re: Trying Out Flipper Zero

#50

Post by weinzierl »

nix23 wrote: post #17
bmitc wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do those arguments really hold up though? I get that these devices are sort of the “messenger” in “don’t shoot the messenger”, but still. Security is about appropriate security. A general teenager or thief wanting to cause issues would not know what to do with an SDR and laptop, versus something like the Flipper making it point and click. So now that something is made so readily available, we need to increase the cos…

>Is there an easy solution to improve locks on cars? Public/Private Keys? You know a secure protocol like SSH?

Doesn't help against a common attack possible for all reasonably modern luxury cars (which happen also to be the most interesting targets).

For these cars it's enough that the key is near and it is considered a feature that no user interaction (like pressing a button on the keyfob) is required. This can be exploited by relaying the signal from the original key to an attacker who is near the car. Cryptography alone cannot protect against this attack scenario (which is called a "relay attack", not to be confused with a "replay attack").

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