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As unions decline, inequality rises

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Re: As unions decline, inequality rises

#41

Post by thepasswordis »

ljw1001 wrote: post #37
thepasswordis wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because some people take pride in their work, and being essentially forced to do a bad job hurts them psychologically. I want to get up early, set big goals, work hard on them, and then see the fruits of that hard work. I take immense pride in that, and seeing the output in some sense is a big part of the payment. Unions don’t allow for this attitude, at least none of the ones that I have ever interacted with. They’r…

I think your characterization of unions is a propaganda driven falsehood, and your argument ignores the fact that Most people see less and less of the fruits of their labor.

No post body was provided.

Re: As unions decline, inequality rises

#42

Post by zip1234 »

jasode wrote: post #27
Zeyka wrote: post #3

I will never understand how some working class Americans can be against unions, maybe they just see themselves as embarrassed millionaires that would want to crush their workers to squeeze money out of them? It's probably my European brain, but I cannot understand how someone, say Jerry, 60 year old factory worker from idaho, can be against unions...

>It's probably my European brain, but I cannot understand how someone [...] can be against unions... America unions are structured differently from Europe and some can become as distrusted by the workers as the corporation. Your viewpoint is common but it's based on the mental model of "Unions are good. Period end of story." But for voters like your proverbial Jerry against unions, the mental model is more about trad…

There are also public sector unions which appear to only serve a special interest group at the expense of everyone else. Teacher unions are an example--they appear to protect bad teachers, stifle innovation, and it isn't even clear that they are great at getting pay for teachers.

Re: As unions decline, inequality rises

#43

Post by bombolo »

atsuzaki wrote: post #26
pmoriarty wrote: post #7

Many people don't want equality... especially those who see themselves as superior.

You can see it in the comments of this thread, even.

Yep, like the people who say they are better than their coworkers and say unions would make them compensated less… USA propaganda succeeded… they don't even realise the enemy is their CEO.

Re: As unions decline, inequality rises

#44

Post by dnissley »

kaputmi wrote: post #12

I have mixed feelings about unions. On one hand – should workers be able to associate freely and bargain collectively against employers? Yes! But, should some groups of workers be able to impose on everyone that they must join their association in order to be a worker at X company, or an actor, or something? No, I don't see why.

Exactly! If conditions are so bad in a company that 99% of it's workers immediately sign on to a union then that means something very different than when you can only get 51% of workers to eventually sign on.

Collective bargaining is a escape valve against shit employers for employees that don't have a lot of options. A standing union with mandated membership and support from laws and regulations very easily becomes something far more twisted.

Re: As unions decline, inequality rises

#46

Post by Zeyka »

bombolo wrote: post #38
Zeyka wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly, and I'm not trying to devalue their beliefs, I'm just trying to understand how they can be against something that would benefit them.

They think "oh no my lazy coworkers might get a bigger bonus!" rather than realising that their boss is the former lazy coworker. Basically the american idea that deserving people (aka myself) will magically prevail.

But that's the thing, meritocracy isn't a thing, and saying no to more protections (from unions or from pro-worker laws) just doesn't make sense. Granted there was some things I didn't know about how unions worked in the US, which I learned more about in this thread, but the same questions remain for pro worker and worker protection laws, why do Americans oppose them so much.

Re: As unions decline, inequality rises

#47

Post by avereveard »

This article puts together two graphs and absolutely give no backing as to which one is the causation of the other beyond "see?" or if there's any backing model for their correlation than one could go and test.

This is sensationalistic propaganda, not research.

Re: As unions decline, inequality rises

#48

Post by lilactown »

thepasswordis wrote: post #41
ljw1001 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your characterization of unions is a propaganda driven falsehood, and your argument ignores the fact that Most people see less and less of the fruits of their labor.

Quoted post unavailable.

My dad and my grandpa worked for unions for decades, and they are the hardest working people I know and take great pride in that.

Re: As unions decline, inequality rises

#49

Post by ohCh6zos »

mhb wrote: post #18
Zeyka wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly, and I'm not trying to devalue their beliefs, I'm just trying to understand how they can be against something that would benefit them.

Is it that hard to understand that someone might be in favor of something in principle, but object to its particular implementation? Or that someone could act against their own self-interest because of a belief in a broader principle? Maybe everyone's motivation isn't to blindly follow their own micro-self-interest.

Any time I hear the claim that people are against their best interests it does not quite make sense to me. My own observation leads me to believe that everyone is good at optimizing for their own priorities.

Re: As unions decline, inequality rises

#50

Post by dantheman »

bombolo wrote: post #32
thepasswordis wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generally the people who are advocating for a union are doing it to level the playing field for themselves against you.

Yes for example an immigrant that is under threat of being deported might want a more level playing field.

Unions are anti-immigrant.
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