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Copyright denied because the model’s pose is not unique

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Re: Copyright denied because the model’s pose is not unique

#41
post #34

Copyright maximalists are a menace to society. An artist thinks that her unique genius means nobody else should be able to do "pose where model looks over left shoulder holding flowers". Humbug! That school of thought has forgotten that the original intent of copyright was to encourage creation, not to allow a cabal of rent-seekers to prevent it.

This isn't copyright maximalism; she's suing someone who literally just made a painting of her photograph. If you can't sue over that, then you own basically nothing, and copyright is effectively abolished.

Either...

- Her lawyer fucked up drafting the lawsuit

- The court horrifically misunderstood her claim, and will be smacked down on appeals

- There's some context that has been intentionally omitted (but I doubt it - I mean, the claim fits into a single image and tweet)

Re: Copyright denied because the model’s pose is not unique

#42

This is somewhat demonstrative of how thin-on-the-ground copyright protection is relative to where creators want it to be (especially when considering what AI-generated art does to the industry). Many artists seem to think the protection is thicker, but here we see an example of doing a painting based on a photograph being sufficiently transformative.

It's not the the painting was found to be sufficiently transformative, but rather that the photograph was ruled to be ineligible for copyright protection in the first place.

I'm not familiar with Belgian copyright law so I can't really comment on how reasonable that ruling is. Under American copyright law it would be absurd.

Re: Copyright denied because the model’s pose is not unique

#43
post #3

not an artist but, reading between the lines, her real fight is against people who are copying. and profiting from her work. that said, i agree with the ruling. there are chances that other artists who haven't seen her art before would come up with that scene. or that specific pose. not the other artistic choices, but the pose and the flowers, and even the kimono, yes.

> i agree with the ruling. there are chances that other artists who haven't seen her art before would come up with that scene. or that specific pose.

The copies are not "inspired" from the originals. They are copied, flipped vertically, changed in hue, and have some earings or tattoos added.

Re: Copyright denied because the model’s pose is not unique

#44

That is an unoriginal pose. Which is why it seems ridiculous that a copyright would be based on pose. There’s still a lot of originality present. I guess the issue is that the authorities need to feign some sort of objectivity and while a human can say “these are obvious imitations/reproductions” they might struggle to define a set of rules you could use to test every case. Copyright continues to feel weird to me.

Art feels weird to me. https://www.elitereaders.com/ridiculous-paintings-insanely-s...

Think of it this way: props from the original Star Wars films fetch millions of dollars at auction. Most movie fans and even most Star Wars fans would never pay that much for a prop. But you can understand wanting to own part of a piece of history. Now, consider these paintings are props for a movie you haven't seen yet, a movie called 'the history of art'. Perhaps if these pieces had a significance to you beyond their visual appearance, it would make more sense why they could be so valuable (to a very small minority).

Re: Copyright denied because the model’s pose is not unique

#45
post #32

I don't quite understand the exact case that is being ruled here. "Copyright" is a concept from countries of "common law" (essentially the US). Most of Europe are _not_ common law countries, and have their own "author's right" systems with very different philosophies and applications. Copyrights are somewhat enforced in Europe as a matter of facilitating trades with the US by carrying over corresponding authorship pr…

As an European, I don't see the problem with what's being argued here. The photo is art, as is, and it should be automatically covered by copyright. You can't download a photo and sell it. This is a 1:1 replica of the original, "printed" by hand, presented as own, and sold.

> This is a 1:1 replica of the original, "printed" by hand, presented as own, and sold.

The ruling here does not contest that what was sold is a close replica of the original.

What was ruled here is that the original author was not able to convince the tribunal that there was enough originality in the creation of the photograph to have it protected against copies in the first place.

My interpretation from the article:

- The law differentiates "skill" from "originality"

- The author had to prove the originality in at least one aspect of the photograph (lighting, pose, post effects, palette, etc)

- The tribunal found that the proof of originality was not convincing, and declared the work as "skilled" but not "original".

- Thus the original photograph does not represent an original work of art, and can be copied freely.

Here is what the tribunal had to say about the proof of originality that were presented:

> Aucune précision n’est ainsi apportée quant à la composition et l’organisation de l’image, son cadrage, l’angle de prise de vue, le choix de la luminosité, le travail de réflexion du photographe, la mise en scène réalisée, la technique photographique mise en œuvre, etc., à part la remarque qu’il y aurait eu une ‚post-production‘ de la photographie, qui n’est cependant étayée par aucune précision quant aux travaux éventuels effectués et qui constitueraient une manifestation, voire expression de la personnalité de Jingna Zhang

Apparently the arguments of originality provided by the photograph were vague and non convincing, essentially revolved around post effects, but these were not detailed enough.

Apparently the defense was also able to provide numerous photographs from other authors that were close enough to reinforce the idea that it was not such an original work of art.

Re: Copyright denied because the model’s pose is not unique

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it only "inspired" when it's not only the same pose, but the same person and the same clothes, up to its individual folds. "Inspired" would be inviting a model to wear the same thing and take the pose, and painting that. Here, it's a reproduction of the mirrored picture, with different colors and trivial changes (like the earings). Calling this inspiration is utterly ridiculous.

> but the same person and the same clothes, up to its individual folds. It's not the same person. The face is very different, as is the hair. not the same folds either, look at the white cloth near the flower. It's also a painting and not a photograph. If a painter creates a painting of Grand Central Station has he violated the copyright of the architect? Artists must be able to create, by their own hand, their own v…

The flowers are arranged identically in the painting to the photograph. The differences between the two are trivial. The hair is certainly not "very different" and the face is similar enough to be a copying by an imprecise hand. This isn't a painting of Grand Central Station, it's a photo of the Mona Lisa.

Re: Copyright denied because the model’s pose is not unique

#47
post #22
post #8

I don't really understand, I'd think that complete reproduction of her photo should be prohibited under copyright. No one should be able to take copies of her photo and paste it onto whatever product they want to sell for example. If her exact photo has been denied copyright protections I'd agree that's a problem. That said, the pose is not unique and her example of someone who "copied" her work ( https://nitter.net/…

I agree. I am part of the local art community and there is this meme idea floating around that the artist owns everything about a work they make, even the idea. At present people are using this to bash on AI art and decry it as stolen. But this is mistaken, both from a legal sense (many aspects of a work are not copyrightable), and in a physics sense (you cannot control an idea in the minds of others, information wan…

>"and in a physics sense (you cannot control an idea in the minds of other,"

I think we should add the caveat "yet", to your quote. I imagine it's physiological to control ideas in people's brains if you could accurately and correctly map neurons to people's thoughts.

Re: Copyright denied because the model’s pose is not unique

#48
post #32

I don't quite understand the exact case that is being ruled here. "Copyright" is a concept from countries of "common law" (essentially the US). Most of Europe are _not_ common law countries, and have their own "author's right" systems with very different philosophies and applications. Copyrights are somewhat enforced in Europe as a matter of facilitating trades with the US by carrying over corresponding authorship pr…

US copyright law is harmonized with the Berne Convention. European countries might use a different term but I don't think the differences come into play here.

Re: Copyright denied because the model’s pose is not unique

#49

The tweets appear to obfuscate the actual issue. From the thread _I guess_ that she took a standard pose of a model, then someone else came along and posed the same model in the same way? If that's right, then the Luxembourg courts would be upholding a quite long standing position. The following is entirely my personal opinion and in no way relates to my employment. Consider if ordinary poses were considered creative…

The pose is only one of many creative elements in the portrait, and if the painting had simply replicated the same pose nobody would have even noticed, much less cared.

Re: Copyright denied because the model’s pose is not unique

#50
post #3

not an artist but, reading between the lines, her real fight is against people who are copying. and profiting from her work. that said, i agree with the ruling. there are chances that other artists who haven't seen her art before would come up with that scene. or that specific pose. not the other artistic choices, but the pose and the flowers, and even the kimono, yes.

The flowers are arranged identically. The folds of fabric and hair are identical aside from a few trivial changes. It looks like a lightly photoshopped version of the original. Far too similar for chance.
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