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France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of train travel

euronews.com

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Re: France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of train travel

#41

Post by sgu999 »

throw_m239339 wrote: post #33
amrocha wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"under pretense of ecology concerns" Yes, the evil government is propping up BIG TRAIN because they hate planes!!!

> Yes, the evil government is propping up BIG TRAIN because they hate planes!!! Dude, instead of mocking me and sounding like an ass, learn your history. 20 years ago in that country, it was impossible to go from Region to region by bus, you had to take the train. You couldn't do Le Mans Paris by bus because bus operators were not allowed to sell inter regional trips. It's the EU that forced France to allow these. Yo…

You know how these buses are casually named right? Yes, indeed, it's the same Macron as the current one in charge of the government. Not sure where you get your news intake from to believe for a second that the French government is favoring the national railway company over its competitors in any way.

This instance is just a weak law intended for greenwashing purpose, nothing else.

Re: France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of train travel

#42

Post by dorfsmay »

mojuba wrote: post #16

I understand the criticism but to be fair high speed trains are better in many cases: Paris - Lyon by airplane: 1h15 plus travel to and from airport, plus security, boarding etc Paris - Lyon by train: 2h30, city center to city center, no security checks. This might actually be faster! Personally when traveling between London and Paris I choose the high speed train. It's usually more expensive but just the fact it rem…

What about trips that don't involve Paris, say Nantes - Marseille?

Re: France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of train travel

#43

Post by DoingIsLearning »

usr1106 wrote: post #28

This seems like making headlines for little real impact. If they did want to do something for the environment and fairer competition between transport modes they should tax aviation fuel and airline tickets. Regardless of distance and destination.

Aviation emissions are 1.9% of global emissions. [0] I certainly don't disagree with a jet fuel tax (which is obscenely tax free in most of the world).

However, if we want to be impactful then we need to start building massive storage infrastructure and grow renewable sources so that we can curb down emissions from energy production using coal and gas.

Everything else is a drop in a bucket comparatively speaking (even ICE to EV transition is relatively small in comparison with Electricity related emissions). More so if EVs are charged up from Coal/Gas Electricity sources.

[0] https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2020/09/Emissions-by-sect...

Re: France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of train travel

#44

Post by NBJack »

tssva wrote: post #40
bmitc wrote: post #12

The U.S. has seemingly done the opposite. Nonstop flights have all but vanished completely. What used to be a few hours on a cross-country nonstop flight has now become two to four connecting regional flights that start to approach international flight times in total. Does anyone know what's going on with no nonstop flights anymore?

That is not my experience at all. I fly non-stop between major US cities all the time. For smaller cities I may need to make a single connection. I live on the east coast and within 45 minutes of 2 major airports. I just did some quick checking. Following are examples of the number of daily non-stops available from them: San Francisco - 11 Las Angeles - 13 Dallas - 17 Seattle - 9 Portland - 4 Chicago - 33 St Louis -…

Anecdotally, the reverse is not true. West to East non-stop flights have been scarce as of late to many major cities, even from a major hub, compared to a few years ago. Some flights in the same direction have sometimes been faster via Canada than staying the US.

I too am curious as to the shift.

Re: France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of train travel

#45

Post by einpoklum »

throw_m239339 wrote: post #20
mojuba wrote: post #16

I understand the criticism but to be fair high speed trains are better in many cases: Paris - Lyon by airplane: 1h15 plus travel to and from airport, plus security, boarding etc Paris - Lyon by train: 2h30, city center to city center, no security checks. This might actually be faster! Personally when traveling between London and Paris I choose the high speed train. It's usually more expensive but just the fact it rem…

It costs me around 60€ to go from France to Switzerland by plane. It costs me way more than 60€ to go from France to Switzerland by train. This why people are taking the plane, because it's less expensive that high speed rail, nothing more. Make high speed rail less expensive and people will take the train. Government induced free market distortion under pretense of ecology concerns is just what it is, bullshit, and…

> This why people are taking the plane, because it's less expensive that high speed rail, nothing more.

This is often true. But - not always. Depends on which endpoints. Sometimes it's speed, sometimes convenience, sometime price.

> free market distortion

1. Markets are not free. They are based on violent coercion of private ownership of land, factories, service providing corporations etc.

2. Markets are always "distorted", in the sense that they don't just occur naturally.

3. I can't say for certain whether this specific measure is appropriate or well-intentioned, but - emissions need to be reduced drastically over the next several years; and not just in one sector of the economy. So in _some_ way, people do need to change their habits in favor of using more carbon-frugal modes of travel.

Re: France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of train travel

#46

Post by foxhill »

sokoloff wrote: post #26
foxhill wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

nonsense. cars, buses, and SUVs (odd distinction, but ok. also why buses?!) account for ~10-15% of global emissions (depending on how you cut it). see https://ourworldindata.org/emissions-by-sector .

I don’t see where your data refutes GP’s primary point; your data shows road transport as being much higher share of emissions than aviation.

it doesn’t refute it, and it wasn’t my intention to do so. i was trying to point out that such an “extreme” position might not be sensible for such a fractionally small amount of CO2 emissions.

Re: France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of train travel

#47

Post by quadcore »

dorfsmay wrote: post #42
mojuba wrote: post #16

I understand the criticism but to be fair high speed trains are better in many cases: Paris - Lyon by airplane: 1h15 plus travel to and from airport, plus security, boarding etc Paris - Lyon by train: 2h30, city center to city center, no security checks. This might actually be faster! Personally when traveling between London and Paris I choose the high speed train. It's usually more expensive but just the fact it rem…

What about trips that don't involve Paris, say Nantes - Marseille?

Just insert Paris in between. Nantes - Paris - Marseille shouldnt be too bad really.

Re: France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of train travel

#49

Post by dorfsmay »

Freak_NL wrote: post #37
throw_m239339 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It costs me around 60€ to go from France to Switzerland by plane. It costs me way more than 60€ to go from France to Switzerland by train. This why people are taking the plane, because it's less expensive that high speed rail, nothing more. Make high speed rail less expensive and people will take the train. Government induced free market distortion under pretense of ecology concerns is just what it is, bullshit, and…

Just taking a simple example like Lausanne (Switzerland) to Paris (France)¹ shows comparable ticket prices. For an arbitrary date a few months away like April 21st, that gives me a single train ticket for €65 on a direct connection to Gare du Nord, or a train ride to Genève-Aéroport (€8) plus a plane ticket for around €65 to Orly. Cheaper plane tickets exist, but not if you have even a single backpack. In terms of ti…

> for most us who have the means

That's a difficult personal choice to push on people when the super rich are traveling by private jets, fuel for international air travel isn't taxed (because bought in duty free zone technically), etc...

People want legislation for all, not just fake moral that only applies to the middle class and lower. I believe the fact that this law will affect private jet trips is a reflection that politicians are aware of this and starting to feel the pressure.

Re: France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of train travel

#50

Post by mannykannot »

alistairSH wrote: post #24
throw_m239339 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It costs me around 60€ to go from France to Switzerland by plane. It costs me way more than 60€ to go from France to Switzerland by train. This why people are taking the plane, because it's less expensive that high speed rail, nothing more. Make high speed rail less expensive and people will take the train. Government induced free market distortion under pretense of ecology concerns is just what it is, bullshit, and…

Why is train so much more expensive? Surely jets that cost $100s of millions, supported by massive airports, are more expensive? Seems like the market distortions are subsidies to airlines of some sort.

High-speed railway infrastructure is expensive, and so is a modern high-speed train, which is not technologically less sophisticated than an airliner.
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