Live data from Hacker News

Why Isn’t the Whole World Rich?

asteriskmag.com

41–50 of 230 posts

Re: Why Isn’t the Whole World Rich?

#41
At least in part due to unavoidable scarcity.

The California coastline is a beautiful place. More people want to live there than can physically live there. Whoever gets to live there, by whatever means, has something that many people want. That's wealth, and it cannot be equally distributed.

If you were to start the world from scratch, give everyone $1000, hierarchies would still immediately develop. People have different affinities, skills, people encounter different ideas at different times, happen to meet people or live in a certain place during a certain movement. As long as people are free to exchange their resources, they will not end up equally distributed.

And even if we're talking about a post-scarcity Star Trek situation with replicators and holodecks, you still would never eliminate a hierarchy of value. Maybe everyone can live in on the California coastline in their holodeck, but the actual California coastline is still scarce, and people will still prize it. Or maybe Captain Picard hand carves a chair. It can be replicated exactly, but there will be a certain value to having the actual chair that he carved.

We're already seeing this phenomenon in a world with highly efficient and advanced manufacturing. We pay a premium for things that are hand made, simply for the fact that the process that produced the thing is inherently limited.

We'll never escape scarcity, and this is just one of the things that will always maintain a hierarchy of value.

Re: Why Isn’t the Whole World Rich?

#43
post #11
post #5

Make the question smaller. Why isn’t all of America equally rich? Why aren’t all neighborhoods in your city equally rich? The answers are similar: historical path dependence, founder effects, compounding network effects, and fortunate or unfortunate accidents.

+ Nature

It’s a factor and I think those that argue against it overshoot their case by completely dismissing it altogether.

Yet to argue that it’s a large factor you have to explain all the many cases of genetically almost identical populations with vastly different outcomes across either space or time.

By time I mean historically. Europe was a lot poorer than much of the Muslim world and the Orient until the enlightenment and the industrial age. Did Europeans suddenly mutate into a higher intelligence population?

Russia has been in steady decline since probably 1980 or so. Their ethnic makeup has not changed to any significant degree.

China exploded in the past 30 years. Probably even less genetic change there.

North and South Korea from space is the most dramatic example. That has an obvious political cause but the genes are about identical.

The variance in societal scale outcome just does not map well to human genetics, revealing it as a minor rather than a major factor.

Re: Why Isn’t the Whole World Rich?

#44

A strange example since back then South Korea was a dictatorship that massacred over 100,000 of its own citizens: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodo_League_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeju_uprising https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/December_massacres

Okay and? Look at Samsung phones. They so good!

Re: Why Isn’t the Whole World Rich?

#45

Simple answer; people from rich countries will use flaws in the political structures of certain other countries to install corrupt politicians; these politicians are then going to work for the interests of their rich foreign patrons and against the interests of their own people (for kickbacks/self-enrichment). The corrupt politicians will do things like saddle their people with significant public debts (which will fo…

> people from rich countries will use flaws in the political structures of certain other countries to install corrupt politicians

> it's vitally important to live in a country which has reliable, honest politicians

Exactly. But the corrupt politicians do not get installed by other countries. They get installed by a culture of corruption within a country.

Re: Why Isn’t the Whole World Rich?

#46
post #18

One reason is how much ever we try to disagree, the socio economic construct is still a zero sum game with an ever increasing pie. People who argue otherwise point to the size of the pie without practically ever stating what those in difficult positions can realistically do to get more of it. Other reasons are that honestly there is not much "real work" to be done so we can argue that a very small % of existing popul…

FTA: In 2019 there were about 648 million people living in extreme poverty, subsisting on the equivalent of $2.15 per day or less. Those 648 million people made up 8.4% of world population — representing an improvement over 1990, when 35.9% of people lived on that little. This seems to be the inverse of a zero-sum game: the West might have got a lot richer, but hundreds of millions of people were lifeted out of extre…

I wonder though - this growth has been largely taken out of ignoring an externality: the environment. We are living a global extinction event which will show up in the fossil record.

Re: Why Isn’t the Whole World Rich?

#47
You can make the whole world not poor (and quite a few people not as rich as they are). Solution is simple - allow free movement of goods, services AND people. Perhaps also follow-up with allowing anyone to buy any piece of land anywhere so that rich can also buy up cheaper land (fair deal?). A lot of reasons for conflict (and need to organize around nation states) will stop remaining so important. I guess, one can dream...

Re: Why Isn’t the Whole World Rich?

#48
post #35
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if the pie increases, it's not really a zero sum game, is it?

Entities without competition inflate prices until they capture all the extra new pie. You receive increase in salary from your boss one year and next year it gets eaten away by monopolies like healthcare, education, housing and landlords.

Rent seeking may be zero sum, but the economy as a whole not. If we banned rent seeking the economy would likely grow faster. You could argue that's changing the game, but the economy is a weird one in that changing the game is part of the game.

Re: Why Isn’t the Whole World Rich?

#49

Thermodynamics. You can only extract work from a gradient

I'm with you on this.. There can only be rich countries if there are poor countries.. Otherwise there would just be.. countries..

One of the reasons that the standard of living is so high in rich countries, is because we're paying poor countries to do the work + pollution, if they had as much money as rich countries, they'd be unwilling to do that work/polution for that price, and the "true" price of the work would reveal itself..

In Denmark, the vast majority of what's consumed is not produced in Denmark, that'd be too expensive and nobody would afford it.. Being rich is not about how much money you have.. it's about how much MORE money you have than someone else.

Re: Why Isn’t the Whole World Rich?

#50
Riches are the result of unrealized social interaction. Meaning that something of value has been given, but something of equal value has not yet been returned. Holding someone's promise to return on that value later is what makes someone rich.

Language barriers, political barriers, geographic barriers, etc. often prevent people from establishing the necessary social connections.

We've made tremendous strides in reducing those barriers but they have not been eliminated.

Post reply on HN