Live data from Hacker News

Is novel research worth doing? Evidence from peer review

pnas.org

41–50 of 54 posts

Re: Is novel research worth doing? Evidence from peer review

#41
Is novel research worth doing?

It depends on why you are doing it, I suppose. The framing of the piece seems to have a lot of baked in assumptions that likely make sense if your goal is, I guess, successful career in academia.

That's not the driving force behind all research. Research pursued for other reasons may get little to no press but may be successful for the metrics/goals that drove the decision.

Re: Is novel research worth doing? Evidence from peer review

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was my conclusion after publishing a paper during my BSc. Academia is full of petty politics. Professors that gatekeep whole fields on a "like"-basis, reviewers arguing with "not enough experiments done" and questioning uniqueness and novelty in ways that just don't make any sense (to me). It is a very bureaucratic process that cannot possibly be good for innovation and progress. Then you get incentives of field…

Dog whistles in academic reviewing; phrases that can be valid but are typically being used in an invalid way: - Not novel: Novelty is ill-defined. Most journals and conferences have guidelines on this that come down to "will someone find it useful" which should make "not novel" a rare review, not the most common. Additionally, what's obvious post hoc is not obvious a priori (I actually saw an AC override reviewers be…

It is absolutely a systemic problem. A problem that will not be changed or solved within our lifetimes, that's for sure.

Re: Is novel research worth doing? Evidence from peer review

#43

I think often of this jab by Rodney Brooks on my home field of human-robot interaction [1]: "A group of people who have never used a computer are recruited for an experiment, using variations of Unix commands to manipulate files from a command line interface. The users have never heard of computer files before and they don’t in any sense have the utility of files internalized. The experiment is to determine whether s…

There's an interesting tension in academia between the need to publish regularly, the fact that deep research often needs longer work periods before achieving impactful results, and the fact that sometimes quantity of output produces better net results. I wonder if this could be alleviated by incentivizing the publishing of papers on work with no statistically significant results, as has been discussed here and elsew…

I would like to see peer-to-peer discussion incentivized. To an extent it is with poster sessions counting for external value. But I think this could be improved by counting more informal discussions and personal communications.

Re: Is novel research worth doing? Evidence from peer review

#44
post #21
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My anecdata from the US agrees. The best part is when funding agencies require proposal reviewers to actually send their critiques back on research proposals. I've read through many reviewers replies to proposals designed for specifically set risky/novel research funding and the responses are sometimes so conservatively comical without a truly valid argument you can't help but laugh. I've also worked at research orga…

I've thought for a long time that this is why you see so much innovation during wartime. War overrides conservatism and gets risky things funded. The same can apply to war-like scenarios. A lot of novel biological research got funded during COVID. We should expect to see a burst in advancement in biomedical technology as it bears fruit over the next 5-10 years. The core problem is probably that conservatism makes the…

"Nobody's figured out yet how to provide a productive channel in a socialist system for humans' totally normal drives to compete and maximize individual outcome."

Nobody has figured out how to maximize individual outcome, or provide a channel for such pursuit. Period. Socialism has nothing to do with it. People are crap at managing more than a few dozen other people, even for the best managers who have ever lived. And the systems we have in place since agriculture took over are trying to manage many, many more people.

Most people in more developed countries live in partially socialist systems. This doesn't prevent them from getting private sector jobs, creating companies, and otherwise trying to pursue the maximization of their individual outcomes.

Re: Is novel research worth doing? Evidence from peer review

#45

Bullshit. Journals select for novelty, this is true. But this is novelty in a trifling fashion, like teaching a dog to roll over. The entire system, at least in the UK is set up to actively discourage risky research entirely. Doing something truly new is discouraged unless you are truly a senior or leader. By then, you've probably lost most of your imagination anyway.

>By then, you've probably lost most of your imagination anyway. I've recently left academia after ~10 years to work on more blue-sky-stuff in industry, and this rings so true. It took me a few months to unlearn academia's focus on the minimal project we can do to get the next paper out (still unlearning!). It's hard to get in, it's harder to get out.

I worked as a permatemp for almost 7 years in industry and didn't have the ability to order my own reagents. It took 3 or 4 years of working in a DOE lab to break that habit and start ordering my own reagents to innovate with.

Ingrained work habits are hard to break.

Re: Is novel research worth doing? Evidence from peer review

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dog whistles in academic reviewing; phrases that can be valid but are typically being used in an invalid way: - Not novel: Novelty is ill-defined. Most journals and conferences have guidelines on this that come down to "will someone find it useful" which should make "not novel" a rare review, not the most common. Additionally, what's obvious post hoc is not obvious a priori (I actually saw an AC override reviewers be…

It is absolutely a systemic problem. A problem that will not be changed or solved within our lifetimes, that's for sure.

> A problem that will not be changed or solved within our lifetimes

Honestly, I don't like opinions like this. That's just passing off the work that needs to be done to fix these problems. It wasn't even a hundred years ago when people published more in the open and the publish or perish paradigm didn't exist. The latter is a relatively tool, and collapsed because Goodhart's Law.

We can make the changes, but not with defeatist attitudes.

Re: Is novel research worth doing? Evidence from peer review

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is absolutely a systemic problem. A problem that will not be changed or solved within our lifetimes, that's for sure.

> A problem that will not be changed or solved within our lifetimes Honestly, I don't like opinions like this. That's just passing off the work that needs to be done to fix these problems. It wasn't even a hundred years ago when people published more in the open and the publish or perish paradigm didn't exist. The latter is a relatively tool, and collapsed because Goodhart's Law. We can make the changes, but not with…

Fair point. I was just thinking that one sensible change could be to publish everything without significant constraints on open platforms. Then, in some way, the community and some moderate moderation would basically decide which papers and researchers get "famous". In the best case, that would result in more true "breakthroughs", but reflecting about how social media works (incentives to constantly push narratives, hype and simple "truths" that explain complex world issues) at the moment, that seems a bit too optimistic. That's why I peddled back to "not solvable within our lifetimes". Who knows. I'd like to do research, but if I go into academia I'd be immensely constrained and would have no freedom what to work on. The only viable option is to become sufficiently wealthy to fund myself and my ideas. Would be nice, even if a tiny bit unrealistic.

Re: Is novel research worth doing? Evidence from peer review

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A problem that will not be changed or solved within our lifetimes Honestly, I don't like opinions like this. That's just passing off the work that needs to be done to fix these problems. It wasn't even a hundred years ago when people published more in the open and the publish or perish paradigm didn't exist. The latter is a relatively tool, and collapsed because Goodhart's Law. We can make the changes, but not with…

Fair point. I was just thinking that one sensible change could be to publish everything without significant constraints on open platforms. Then, in some way, the community and some moderate moderation would basically decide which papers and researchers get "famous". In the best case, that would result in more true "breakthroughs", but reflecting about how social media works (incentives to constantly push narratives,…

There's a double edged sword here. Currently CVPR has a social media ban that is extremely strict. I've definitely been seeing Twitter act differently than it normally does around this so we'll see if it works. But why this matters here is that there's an incredibly strong correlation between the popularity of the lab, the amount of eyes that can read the preprint (with authors names), and acceptance at top conferences (i.e. CVPR). I often say that double blind only exists for small fries. But even still, big labs will get more likes from twitter accounts that post arxiv papers. There are plenty of means to bypass this social media ban.

But even from this experiment we can see that there are people actively trying the fix the situation. Likely naive, but something is better than nothing. I wish there would be more push for ACs and Meta Reviewers having the highest standards, but this is where we are.

I am totally for us abandoning journals and conferences and just publishing to arxiv and open review. This is exactly what I would do if I was independently wealthy and could research without the constraints that I am in. But we also need to recognize the issues with this and that popularity and outreach ability greatly affect perceptions of quality of the paper. That this is not meritocratic.

Re: Is novel research worth doing? Evidence from peer review

#49
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My anecdata from the US agrees. The best part is when funding agencies require proposal reviewers to actually send their critiques back on research proposals. I've read through many reviewers replies to proposals designed for specifically set risky/novel research funding and the responses are sometimes so conservatively comical without a truly valid argument you can't help but laugh. I've also worked at research orga…

I have a hunch that this conservatism problem is why ADHD genes / traits remain so prevalent. The percentage of populations with it is around 5% and remarkably consistent across drastically different cultures. The reason is that those with ADHD are often physiologically incapable of not pursuing an interest. Often those interest lie in novel areas. It’s unfortunate for those with the traits, but a net benefit for soc…

Traits that are not beneficial to the individual will die out, the kind of group selection this process would require is implausible at best.

I would assume that the kind of personality your are referring to is adaptive for the individual as well, especially the mild variants.

Re: Is novel research worth doing? Evidence from peer review

#50

I think often of this jab by Rodney Brooks on my home field of human-robot interaction [1]: "A group of people who have never used a computer are recruited for an experiment, using variations of Unix commands to manipulate files from a command line interface. The users have never heard of computer files before and they don’t in any sense have the utility of files internalized. The experiment is to determine whether s…

As a youngster I got the idea that truly novel experimentation should be conducted alongside the most predictable incremental progress, in a unified way so that an overall structural approach which allows this would be an ideal thing to build.

Even if it takes decades.

Which is how long research labs take anyway.

Maybe this means something. Talk about HCI. Coming from a guy back in 1982 who thought pointing & clicking was pretty cool. Almost a decade before the mouse was widely recognized, the trackball/firing-button was in use industrially to select graphic items. At one of the control rooms of the most automated marine chemical installations at the time, they had consoles that looked like NASA Mission Control during the moon mission. Tied into their mainframes. And wired into their tank farms, pipelines, and ship docks. Well a somewhat humble oil company can have more money to spend on this kind of thing than NASA sometimes.

The oversize CRTs would have the sharp monochrome graphics showing little pictures of the available tanks on the left and available docks on the right. In between, connecting them, was the pipeline maze. Scattered across the pipelines were the little markers representing the control valves, which physically controlled where the product was going to go. They were like a little blank spot in the pipeline, just big enough so a cursor could go there and select it with a click so it would no longer be blank. Using a big console-mounted trackball like would appear years later on the Atari Millipede arcade game. And that would end up opening the valve so the product would flow through that segment. Until they had an unbroken line from tank to dock.

When your ship was coming in, you would co-ordinate the exact dock and tanks that were going to be involved, and after review the graphic layout would be executed physically in the field before measurement & testing could be directed for that vessel.

So I went home to my Atari computer, unplugged the Centipede cartridge and popped in the BASIC. Kept the home trackball with the regulation cueball plugged into a joystick port. Mocked up the console GUI in color since this is what really set new things like home Ataris apart from earlier plain-text machines, so besides basic graphics I got accustomed to pointing & clicking at home using my own code. No Mouse. Statically like I had seen. Really just one more step away from people intuitively pointing & clicking for targeting in Missile Command, which was the other main Atari game using the trackball.

I read a number of Atari books and experimented quite a bit and I could see that the truly fast games were really a product of deeper experience in things that I did not possess; immersion in the emerging microprocessor ecosystem, and very long hours of progress, which I could not compare to as a hobbyist. I wanted to make an accurate navigational Google-map type framework where the graphics would be first-person 3-D as you drove along realistic freeways. You would certainly want a racing mode, so that would be a bit of GTA style landmark navigation either way. Obvious idea, but that was really too much for me and my equipment.

Instead I did a much simpler slow-action logic game called Master Mind where you deduce the color pattern that the opposing player (or computer) has secretly encoded. You simply dragged & dropped the colors into position, and the computer answered.

So I was dragging & dropping quite a few years before most of the world had a mouse to point & click with in DOS. Heck, before most of them even had DOS. But it was really just one day's HCI work. What else are you going to do with the equipment? You're going to have to experiment for yourself. It's good not to be hampered by all the traditional academic obstacles.

I think nothing beats returns on inventions which have already been accomplished compared to research yet to be done, but the wisest investments are in the balanced performance of both. They go together so well.

Post reply on HN