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To get kids into science, just do it

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Re: To get kids into science, just do it

#41

Post by insightcheck »

auxym wrote: post #29
pdpi wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A PhD in maths is _incredibly_ valuable. Anything abstract algebra related, and the likes of the NSA are all over you. Anything numerical analysis related will find plenty of opportunities in finance, and the industry just calls statistics specialists "Data Scientists".

Yeah, to be fair, my perspective is from Canada, which I probably should have mentioned. I mean, we do have the RCMP and Bay Street, but I don't think it's comparable (in number of positions, salaries offered, etc) to NSA and Wall Street.

I heard that if you studied math with applications to computer science, you can find great opportunities with technology too (if not moving to the US for places like Google, there are quantum computing startups like Xanadu in Canada, along with other technology startups in Canada’s big cities too).

In addition, outside of the RCMP, various ministries of the Canadian government could need the skillset too (Statistics Canada being the one that first comes to mind, though any teams that do economic analyses could benefit from someone with the background).

Re: To get kids into science, just do it

#43

Post by fastneutron »

n0tth3dro1ds wrote: post #35
fastneutron wrote: post #32

To the people posting about having good chemistry sets as a kid: what were these sets and where did you/your parents get them? Where are the good sources today? Everything I remember growing up in the 90s was pretty dumbed down at best, and if you wanted to order any of the interesting chemicals or equipment, you needed a company or school letterhead with a PO account. Things got better in the 00s when eBay was still…

Ever hear Kary Mullis (PCR inventor / Nobel prize) talk about his childhood? He could basically buy whatever chemical he wanted. Definitely did dangerous stuff and got into trouble, but it’s hard to imagine children today having similar ability to hone skills with brains still spungey and time still abundant.

I believe it. In the 50s You used to be able to get chemistry sets with potassium chlorate and mail-in coupons for radioisotopes. Now it’s all the same cheap, uninspiring crap for making glue slime or vinegar/baking soda fizzes.

I had sympathetic parents with chemistry degrees, and we were able to find ways to get the cool stuff when I was a teenager, but for the vast majority, it’s no surprise that kids lose interest in STEM fields as they reach their teens.

Re: To get kids into science, just do it

#44

Post by malux85 »

fastneutron wrote: post #43
n0tth3dro1ds wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ever hear Kary Mullis (PCR inventor / Nobel prize) talk about his childhood? He could basically buy whatever chemical he wanted. Definitely did dangerous stuff and got into trouble, but it’s hard to imagine children today having similar ability to hone skills with brains still spungey and time still abundant.

I believe it. In the 50s You used to be able to get chemistry sets with potassium chlorate and mail-in coupons for radioisotopes. Now it’s all the same cheap, uninspiring crap for making glue slime or vinegar/baking soda fizzes. I had sympathetic parents with chemistry degrees, and we were able to find ways to get the cool stuff when I was a teenager, but for the vast majority, it’s no surprise that kids lose interes…

Yea, when I was a teenager I had a key to my high school chemistry lab, and would go do experiments on my liquid mercury resonance reactor in the weekend.

How wild is that?! Can’t imagine it happening today

Re: To get kids into science, just do it

#45

Post by wbl »

pdpi wrote: post #23
auxym wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's satire. STEM is pushed hard, but realistically, science and math dont have that great career prospects. For one thing, a PhD, and the 4-7 year opportunity cost that comes with it, is pretty much required to get anything more than a lab tech job. After that PhD, where do you go? You can try for an insanely competitive tenure track faculty position. Or a very limited number of industry researcher job…

A PhD in maths is _incredibly_ valuable. Anything abstract algebra related, and the likes of the NSA are all over you. Anything numerical analysis related will find plenty of opportunities in finance, and the industry just calls statistics specialists "Data Scientists".

GS pay isn't that competitive

Re: To get kids into science, just do it

#46

Post by [deleted] »

jbsimpson wrote: post #30
chriskanan wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a scientist, I'd say this claim doesn't hold true for many scientific disciplines. I know scientists working in biopharma earning over $1M per year. That said, I do think the salary mentioned is accurate as a starting salary in academia for a research faculty position (tenure track starting salary in USA is ~50% higher though), but academia pays much worse than industry. You give up salary for huge amounts of auto…

You also have to factor in how terrible post-doc pay and job security is, just to have a shot at getting on the tenure track. In the US it's half of that 80k number in bio research.

[deleted]

Re: To get kids into science, just do it

#47

Post by II2II »

fastneutron wrote: post #43
n0tth3dro1ds wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ever hear Kary Mullis (PCR inventor / Nobel prize) talk about his childhood? He could basically buy whatever chemical he wanted. Definitely did dangerous stuff and got into trouble, but it’s hard to imagine children today having similar ability to hone skills with brains still spungey and time still abundant.

I believe it. In the 50s You used to be able to get chemistry sets with potassium chlorate and mail-in coupons for radioisotopes. Now it’s all the same cheap, uninspiring crap for making glue slime or vinegar/baking soda fizzes. I had sympathetic parents with chemistry degrees, and we were able to find ways to get the cool stuff when I was a teenager, but for the vast majority, it’s no surprise that kids lose interes…

> I had sympathetic parents with chemistry degrees

In other words, you were able to access the cool stuff because someone in your life knew how to handle it. That is probably the way it should be. Now consider all of the families where the parents do not have chemistry degrees, do not work in industries where they regularly handle hazardous materials, or even have to take general workplace safety seriously. You pretty much have to hope the teenager instilled a sense of respect for safety in themselves.

Re: To get kids into science, just do it

#48

Post by counters »

insightcheck wrote: post #38
counters wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We also need to dispel the myth that tenure track academic roles are the only jobs for scientists. In my field, one can have a wonderful, decently-paying career working in some of the most desirable places in the US if they go the national lab route. There's also a thriving private sector which will just get bigger. This doesn't even factor in the exit ramp careers if, late in the game, a student realizes that "scien…

I completely agree, but I think most people who arrive at this perspective only reach this view after spending time in industry or adjacent to people working there. A lot of the focus on tenure track jobs comes from professors and academics who dedicate their life almost solely in academic environments (so in their view, it’s a rather unhealthy attitude of academic tenure or bust). I’m not sure how feasible this is,…

Absolutely. There have always been domains where industry roles have been just as sought after as academic ones - think Computer Science broadly, and all the opportunities one has with a PhD there. Other domains have been slow to catch on to this, but it seems like there has been an inflection point over the past 10 years where we're just so grossly overproducing PhDs in so many domains relative to academic jobs that there is mounting pressure on degree programs to revamp their training/prep for "alternative" career paths.

Myself and colleagues are definitely trying to encourage our alma mater to have more support for externships other opportunities in industry. I think things will continue to change - for the better, for early career scientists - over the next 5-10 years. If only because there is a workforce crisis in my field where skills like AI and software engineering are in extremely high demand, but even 3-4 years ago we actively discouraged PhD students from pursuing this type of work!

Re: To get kids into science, just do it

#49

Post by cercatrova »

pdpi wrote: post #23
auxym wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's satire. STEM is pushed hard, but realistically, science and math dont have that great career prospects. For one thing, a PhD, and the 4-7 year opportunity cost that comes with it, is pretty much required to get anything more than a lab tech job. After that PhD, where do you go? You can try for an insanely competitive tenure track faculty position. Or a very limited number of industry researcher job…

A PhD in maths is _incredibly_ valuable. Anything abstract algebra related, and the likes of the NSA are all over you. Anything numerical analysis related will find plenty of opportunities in finance, and the industry just calls statistics specialists "Data Scientists".

The NSA doesn't pay that much compared to the opportunity cost of the wage lost getting that PhD. Their salaries are capped by government standards, they can't pay above that.

Re: To get kids into science, just do it

#50

Post by hnews_account_1 »

n0tth3dro1ds wrote: post #35
fastneutron wrote: post #32

To the people posting about having good chemistry sets as a kid: what were these sets and where did you/your parents get them? Where are the good sources today? Everything I remember growing up in the 90s was pretty dumbed down at best, and if you wanted to order any of the interesting chemicals or equipment, you needed a company or school letterhead with a PO account. Things got better in the 00s when eBay was still…

Ever hear Kary Mullis (PCR inventor / Nobel prize) talk about his childhood? He could basically buy whatever chemical he wanted. Definitely did dangerous stuff and got into trouble, but it’s hard to imagine children today having similar ability to hone skills with brains still spungey and time still abundant.

Are .. are you saying it’s a bad thing children can’t handle dangerous chemicals anymore? Wut?!
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