I never thought I'd see the day Kropotkin made the front page here! You love to see it!
Pëtr Kropotkin and Mutual Aid
41–50 of 113 posts
Re: Pëtr Kropotkin and Mutual Aid
#42Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The possibility of "someone" becoming wealthier than others has no value to me. In a system of voluntary exchange ("capitalism") they can only become wealthier if they are freely given their wealth by someone , even if that someone's not you. > I care much more about the possibility of people starving or living a terrible life due to lack of basic material needs. I hold with Kropotkin, we are a social species. As l…
> Nazism and Fascism both were self-avowedly anti-capitalist Ideologies. Insofar as neither cared for peace nor for property rights, this self-assessment must be judged entirely correct. This is just refuting historical truth without providing any evidence. It doesn't matter that Hitler used a kind of anticapitalis rethoric before getting in power. What happened once he did, is that the capitalist of the country got…
That you do not agree with the definition of capitalism that was given at the origin of this exchange does not mean that I have to abide by yours.
You can argue against your strawman-capitalism all you want, I do not care. If you insist that capitalism is not about protecting everyone's right to their property, I see no point in carrying on.
Re: Pëtr Kropotkin and Mutual Aid
#43Earlier quoted context omitted.
> And how would you suggest that someone could become and stay wealthy, if their only legal means to acquire wealth is to provide value to society? The possibility of "someone" becoming wealthier than others has no value to me. I care much more about the possibility of people starving or living a terrible life due to lack of basic material needs. > Would you rather take what you desire by force, under the pretense th…
Look at where there were massive famines with people starving to death. Were those capitalist societies? How many people have starved to death in the semi-capitalist countries such as the US? How many starved to death in the Soviet Union, China, North Korea? When China pivoted to a kind of capitalism, did people start starving or did they start prospering? Allowing individuals to accumulate wealth by being of service…
Plenty of famines happened because if capitalism. Millions of people died in the Bengal famine. Ireland was starved, Cuba was starved.
The dust bowl in the US was hugely disruptive and at least partially caused by capitalism.
It's absurd to claim capitalism prevents starvation.
Re: Pëtr Kropotkin and Mutual Aid
#44My main takeaway from this is that the seemingly contradictory notions like "mutual help" and "competition" are just too vaguely defined, and exist on a wrong level of abstractions, to have any formal discussion about them.
Sometimes the initial introductions are, in fact, quite high level. You might need to dig more to understand the nuances. One blog is not going to get deep enough.
Re: Pëtr Kropotkin and Mutual Aid
#45Earlier quoted context omitted.
How can private property exist in such a society? If you and I both claim to own some land and we can't come to an agreement, isn't it going to be decided with superior force? How is this society mutually beneficial by definition? If I own the fields and decide to destroy the produce (it's mine, I can do whatever I want?) while the locals starve, this is fine right?
How can territorial animals not be fighting each other all the time? http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Academic/Property/Property.htm...
.. a bulk of theology for millennia has addressed this exactly; informally in culture, too.
Re: Pëtr Kropotkin and Mutual Aid
#46"Conquest of Bread" had a huge impact on my politics. It cut through the capitalist realist narrative that we're all in economic competition and that capitalism is the only sane solution. It made me feel like another world is possible. I changed my life to pursue these other possibilities ever since.
I heard (of course) of anarchism a long time ago, but I always wrote it off as impractical: since without government, there's nobody to stop somebody from starting one. However, this may be incorrect, but it does require a population that is always willing to fight against the formation of a government. I think now that anarchism is practical, at least for a population of committed anarchists, and in the absence of h…
> Anarchism argues that no centralized government is necessary for people to lead happy, just and equitable lives.
How does this work when one is a minority in a prejudiced society? This concern has always hindered me from thinking of anarchism as viable.
Re: Pëtr Kropotkin and Mutual Aid
#47Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Nazism and Fascism both were self-avowedly anti-capitalist Ideologies. Insofar as neither cared for peace nor for property rights, this self-assessment must be judged entirely correct. This is just refuting historical truth without providing any evidence. It doesn't matter that Hitler used a kind of anticapitalis rethoric before getting in power. What happened once he did, is that the capitalist of the country got…
That you do not agree with the definition of capitalism that was given at the origin of this exchange does not mean that I have to abide by yours. You can argue against your strawman-capitalism all you want, I do not care. If you insist that capitalism is not about protecting everyone's right to their property, I see no point in carrying on.
That's not my definition, it's the Wikipedia definition. Where does yours come from?
Also would you answer to my initial request to explain how transactions can be voluntary in a capitalist system where most people dont own property, the means of production.
Re: Pëtr Kropotkin and Mutual Aid
#48For some weird reason, people misunderstand the concept of anarchy, always using this word as a synonym for 'chaos'.
In fact, anarchy is a theoretical and highly organized society that relies not on leadership and coercion to function, but on all members of society, who are educated and know their duties. For some weird reason, people believe it to be impossible, but we clearly see it happen in many circumstances, especially if you gather small-to-medium group of intelligent people together.
Re: Pëtr Kropotkin and Mutual Aid
#49For some weird reason, people misunderstand the concept of anarchy, always using this word as a synonym for 'chaos'. In fact, anarchy is a theoretical and highly organized society that relies not on leadership and coercion to function, but on all members of society, who are educated and know their duties. For some weird reason, people believe it to be impossible, but we clearly see it happen in many circumstances, es…
Many years of brainwash from the slave masters have convinced the slaves that they need to be ruled because they cannot govern themselves individually.
Re: Pëtr Kropotkin and Mutual Aid
#50Earlier quoted context omitted.
What else can you recommend reading on the topic?
A book that made the idea of a lack of government believable and appealing to me is David Friedman's Machinery of Freedom. He presents a flushed out vision of a withered state and it is the anarcho-capitalist version of anarchy, the only version which I feel is realizable without force-based coercion. The idea is to envision a society which is stable, but has no government and yet not perfect people. There can still…
The idea of an anarcho-capitalist society functioning peacefully is pure delusion and ignores basically everything from history and observations of reality. It most importantly ignores the concept of power. There would be no free exchange at all. It would be all coercion all the time, an actual hellworld.