It's not society that's excluding anyone, it's one particular mentoring group . I have no problem with all-male groups like the Freemasons, Boy Scouts, or fraternities.
I meant a society, not the society. I should have used a different word. The things you've listed are all-male for traditional reasons. If someone were to start an all-male group now (like, say, an all-male mentoring group), it would generally be frowned upon. I was just wondering if you'd frown upon it also.
I'd think it kinda pointless and wouldn't participate myself, but no, I wouldn't frown upon it in a "should this exist?" way. People have a right to associate with folks they choose.
Edit: actually - I can't say that I wouldn't participate myself. Mentoring is mentoring - if I liked the people involved, I'd get involved.
I had no qualms when students at my college started a new all-male acapella group, or when they started "The Men's Project" (which, somewhat ironically, spent a lot of time discussing how to prevent violence against women).
Though clearly well-intentioned, these sorts of things have always rubbed me the wrong way, too. It seems they are only acceptable for categories outside the "dominant" set {white, male}. "Women in Engineering" is fine, as is "African Americans in Medicine". And unlike, say, a Gay Men's Chorus, I'd bet they're not particularly accepting of people who don't fit the profile. As a white male, I'm sure I enjoy all sorts…
Is your opposition with the fact that minorities are forming groups or that they might be exclusive in nature? If it's the latter, most of them actually aren't--feel free to join your local National Society of Black Engineers chapter.
It's not really opposition, just uneasiness. I believe in voluntary associations, but I think it's a warning sign that it would be hard to form the "National Society of White Engineers" without seeming racist or a "Men in Engineering" group without seeming sexist, even if they accepted anyone who wanted to join. The National Society of Black Engineers, no matter how welcoming they may be in practice, just don't sound like they really want me to show up at their next meeting. And I'm pretty sure the Women in Engineering group at Caltech would have been pissed off if I or any other male Techers had crashed their parties...
PG's actions imply that it's okay to discriminate on the basis of intelligence and ability. Here we probably all agree. This woman's actions imply that it's okay to discriminate on the basis of gender. If you don't have a problem with it, then would you also not have a problem with a society that excludes women?
It's not society that's excluding anyone, it's one particular mentoring group . I have no problem with all-male groups like the Freemasons, Boy Scouts, or fraternities.
The boy scouts allow women it's just rare that one wants to join and there are lots of co-ed fraternities.
Is your opposition with the fact that minorities are forming groups or that they might be exclusive in nature? If it's the latter, most of them actually aren't--feel free to join your local National Society of Black Engineers chapter.
It's not really opposition, just uneasiness. I believe in voluntary associations, but I think it's a warning sign that it would be hard to form the "National Society of White Engineers" without seeming racist or a "Men in Engineering" group without seeming sexist, even if they accepted anyone who wanted to join. The National Society of Black Engineers, no matter how welcoming they may be in practice, just don't sound…
Well, the pattern isn't "random group of people get-together," it's "severe minority group get-together." Less of a warning sign and more of a general pattern. I think it makes a lot of sense to look for the familiar when you're surrounded by something that is somehow alien to you. And since the groups are often formed because of some exclusion (perceived or real), they're very rarely exclusionary themselves.
As a white male in tech, I can see how you might find it difficult to empathize with someone in that situation. Best sort of "imagine if" scenario would be if I dropped you in the middle of a foreign country and you looked around and realized that there were a few Techers there with you. You guys (and gals?) might have some beers together, and if anyone from Turkmenistanians wanted to join you, they could.
I apologise in advance as this is probably quite a controversial rant, but this sort of thing has always really frustrated me. I guess it comes down to this: I don't see how sex matters when you're a business person, when you're programming, when you're building things. The sex of the person rightfully shouldn't come into it - it's their skills that matter. The interpreter, afterall, doesn't spit out a different resu…
>I don't see how sex matters when you're a business person, when you're programming, when you're building things.
Sex shouldn't matter, but how people perceive me due to my sex could have an impact on how I do things.
I know the following would make me sound like a really passive aggressive person, but I write some awful code when someone pisses me off. One time in school I had no choice over who to partner with, and my partner was this awful guy who told me explicitly that he didn't want to work with me because I was female. In the end I wrote most of the code anyway (all he'd provide is copy-pasted code labelled file1, file2, file3 etc. either cause he just didn't know how to do anything or it was just him being passive aggressive at being forced to work with me), but it ended up being the most obfuscated, profanity-laced code I had ever written. I spent quite a bit of time refactoring and deleting comments before submitting it.
I would never do that professionally (instead I go and rant on IRC or twitter for a bit to friends), but I can say I am sometimes tired of the sexism (just like you are tired of the double standard) and it affects me once in a while, and that certainly affects the work I do in myriad ways.
This is a fascinating set of responses. For those men who don't see the need and therefore don't approve, I wonder why you are objecting? For those who see this as exclusionary, you might ask yourself whether an all white organization seems meant for and welcoming to a person of color, and then swap out gender and see what your response is. Just because women live in a world where most engineering cultures are set by men, that doesn't mean that everyone, women and men, are impacted by the lack of diversity and gender difference.
As someone who took a woman-founded team to TechStars (yep, and I'm not an engineer, either), we found a strong interest there in supporting many diverse types of teams as they also sought to support the strongest teams they could find that year.
I left a voice mail for Jessica Livingston letting her know that we were going to do this before we started it, and if I'd been more aware of the deadlines earlier, I would have reached out earlier and started it earlier. There are no factors except culture, comfort and class that make it neccessary for 98% of the applicants and teams selected for YCombinator--or any competitive program--to be male.
This mentoring effort, which I started with some friends, is meant to give women who qualify and want to apply some support that they may perceive as lacking in a program that, to date, has been almost exclusively male, as are most programs in the start up world.
Will this effort be exclusive to YCombnator? I think not. But you're our first noble experiment, and if you're reading this and are a woman who'd like mentoring or to support this, email us at pinkgaragementors@gmail.com
--Susan Mernit
Oh. Not that surprising, really. Affirmative action exists. Even (especially?) in the best schools in the nation. It's not just for race, though. Women get it at tech schools, men get it at some state schools, and poor people get it anywhere where most students are wealthy. For the record, I'm an adamant supporter of AA. And not entirely because it helped me out personally. edit: I go through all this work to say som…
Don't worry aston, the News.YC audience is primarily white male libertarian (both right and left) leaning. Although it's a philosophically consistent position, I think it fails to recognize that there are deep inequities in society that the market/competition just cannot fix (and sometime the market sometimes exacerbates).
Free markets never fix societal inequities. In fact, they exacerbate them. People with wealth use that wealth to generate more wealth. Additionally, only a percentage of the lower class can climb to the upper class in each generation. It amazes me that anyone thinks there can ever be "equality".
I think this is a great idea! She is offering help.
Frankly, this is the first post I've read where someone is offering plain and simple help. It would be great if she could help everyone, but her available 'free helping' time is I'm sure limited, and she choose a filter to limit the pool and to serve her personal goals as well.
I apologise in advance as this is probably quite a controversial rant, but this sort of thing has always really frustrated me. I guess it comes down to this: I don't see how sex matters when you're a business person, when you're programming, when you're building things. The sex of the person rightfully shouldn't come into it - it's their skills that matter. The interpreter, afterall, doesn't spit out a different resu…
Though clearly well-intentioned, these sorts of things have always rubbed me the wrong way, too. It seems they are only acceptable for categories outside the "dominant" set {white, male}. "Women in Engineering" is fine, as is "African Americans in Medicine". And unlike, say, a Gay Men's Chorus, I'd bet they're not particularly accepting of people who don't fit the profile. As a white male, I'm sure I enjoy all sorts…
I recruit from my alma mater first. I help people who grew up in my hometown. It's a comfort level thing.