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Phantom forests: Ambitious tree planting projects are failing

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Re: Phantom forests: Ambitious tree planting projects are failing

#41
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but planting trees and turning it to lumber is an excellent way to sequester carbon.

Trees are not 100% carbon. Logging worsens soil conditions when no effort is made to preserve it. "Just keep planting lol" is not sustainable. Algae sequester carbon better.

What logging does is create an economic incentive to plant the trees and let them grow. The problem with algae is that it doesn't have economic value currently. People dream about turning it into food or biofuels but that's not currently viable.

Although if you were only interested in sequestering carbon (which currently has close to 0 economic incentive) you could grow algae, filter them out of the water, and then pump them deep underground into old gas/oil wells. It's still a lot of energy but possibly more viable than most carbon capture proposals. Over millions of years that algae will probably turn back into coal/oil.

Also, farming algae in natural waterways tends to have its own environmental impacts.

Re: Phantom forests: Ambitious tree planting projects are failing

#42
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes, LA has a program to give away trees for planting in yards and parkways, and my read of the program is that, while it's goal is laudable, the implementation is lacking. earlier this year, a partner non-profit planted 2 trees for us and i planted an additional 2 trees that another org gave us, and i learned that it's not a set-it-and-forget-it type of endeavor. walking around my neighborhood, many of these trees,…

Also, even native plants aren’t adapted to what many people consider ‘native soil’ - if there is no existing native vegetation, the soil itself is far different from what a typical seed would deal with from that same plant natively. And when you think about it, it’s normal - you’d never end up with a giant 100% consistent group of plants in a native area anyway. You’d have variable concentrations all over the place,…

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Re: Phantom forests: Ambitious tree planting projects are failing

#43
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you add the slight qualifier "there is no anti-tree-planting lobby" then it works... those logging companies will also enthusiastically support planting trees

There's no lobby, but you count me as part of an anti-tree-planting group. There's a specific reason why, and it's because of how it's done. The reason that they plant trees, is to grow specific kinds of trees that are good for logging companies. So they spray areas that are logged with glycosphate to prevent other plants from reclaiming the logged areas, and then plant round-up ready GMO trees in the area. It leads…

No post body was provided.

Re: Phantom forests: Ambitious tree planting projects are failing

#44

" There is no anti-tree lobby " There absolutely is. In my country, logging companies release statements complaining bitterly about effects to industry when new areas of land are protected from logging by the government. They equally are quite happy to quietly log ancient trees when allowed. Just because people don't march around with their agenda printed on a badge doesn't mean they don't exist.

Harvesting and replanting trees is not anti-tree.

Re: Phantom forests: Ambitious tree planting projects are failing

#46
> Not surprisingly, those locals often reacted badly. For example, in northern Malawi, they broke fences and burned a growing forest to get back the common grazing land on which the trees had been planted. In two Nigerian projects, villagers cut all the planted non-fruit trees for firewood, while protecting those that bore fruit.

Recommended reading: "Seeing Like A State" by James Scott. The first section on Scientific Forestry directly applies, and the rest of the book conceptually does too.

In summary, the state seeks to render its resources and populace legible, because local arrangements are very hard to quantify (and tax) from the center. This drive to achieve legibility inevitably distorts the world they are attempting to understand, for example by incentivizing monoculture forestry (easier to count the trees) instead of natural forest growth (providing many communal resources that are impossible to measure such as firewood, foraging, grazing, and so on).

There is a very prevalent idea that "subsistence farmers" know little about the land they work. It's usually the opposite; they tend to have far more practical expertise than the centralized planners.

If instead of planning these projects centrally, they were planned and executed by locals in collaboration with central funding sources, you'd be much more likely to get good results. The local farmers can usually tell you what trees will grow, where they will survive, what the village needs more of, and so on. To be more concrete -- why not provide a centralized program that subsidizes villages to plant trees, but does not specify which trees to plant? If the incentives are high enough you'll get people to plant anything (as the OP shows). But at a lower level of incentive, they will only do the work for something that they actually value. That's the sweet spot.

Re: Phantom forests: Ambitious tree planting projects are failing

#47
post #5

Trees tend to fail spectacularly, even for seasoned growers. The site that I bulk purchase seedlings from estimates a failure rate as high as 70% for evergreen plugs if you do everything right . As you move up from seedlings to 3 year old plants, the failure rate drops to 10%, but my real failure rate is probably closer to 30%. The number one reason is too much/too little moisture, with some pests/disease thrown in.…

A thirty percent failure rate is pretty decent for three year old seedlings when you consider the pine cone potential of the survivors.

Re: Phantom forests: Ambitious tree planting projects are failing

#48
post #46

> Not surprisingly, those locals often reacted badly. For example, in northern Malawi, they broke fences and burned a growing forest to get back the common grazing land on which the trees had been planted. In two Nigerian projects, villagers cut all the planted non-fruit trees for firewood, while protecting those that bore fruit. Recommended reading: "Seeing Like A State" by James Scott. The first section on Scientif…

That's the idea behind community-based participatory research. Some people get it.

Re: Phantom forests: Ambitious tree planting projects are failing

#49
post #46

> Not surprisingly, those locals often reacted badly. For example, in northern Malawi, they broke fences and burned a growing forest to get back the common grazing land on which the trees had been planted. In two Nigerian projects, villagers cut all the planted non-fruit trees for firewood, while protecting those that bore fruit. Recommended reading: "Seeing Like A State" by James Scott. The first section on Scientif…

You're spot on with your assessment, the only thing I'd change is that the centralized management does more than funding -- it provides a library of possible projects with expert assistance as needed. Locals still get control and ownership of their efforts but they have help when they want it.

Re: Phantom forests: Ambitious tree planting projects are failing

#50
post #5

Trees tend to fail spectacularly, even for seasoned growers. The site that I bulk purchase seedlings from estimates a failure rate as high as 70% for evergreen plugs if you do everything right . As you move up from seedlings to 3 year old plants, the failure rate drops to 10%, but my real failure rate is probably closer to 30%. The number one reason is too much/too little moisture, with some pests/disease thrown in.…

They need insects also (some will eat the moisture, some will pollinate, spread grains, etc), diversity
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