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Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

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Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#41
post #2

"insubordination" wtf, was this a job or a prison camp?

As others said, the dutch term is probably different.

Their (bad) legal argument was. He refused to follow work instructions, hence he did not perform his work as required, hence we can fire him "op staande voet" which is an on the spot firing that does not require a long process of attempting to improve employee performance. They needed a 'op staande voet' firing because the long process takes months. The justifications for this are limited to things like "theft or fraud", "Threatening or causing Grievous insult", "repeated innebriation" (called out specifically in law), or "refusing a task".

That final cause "Refusing a task" ,or in dutch, quoting from the law: "wanneer de werknemer hardnekkig weigert te voldoen aan redelijke bevelen of opdrachten, hem door of namens de werkgever verstrekt", can be translated to insubordination. A full translation of the dutch phrasing would be: "when the employee persistently refuses to comply with reasonable orders or instructions issued to him by or on behalf of the employer". Hence the company argued that "turn on your webcam all working day" was a "reasonable order or instruction issued by the employer".

Note that the story mentions this was during a "Corrective Action Program". That sounds like they were already in the firing process. Which starts with a process of notifying an employee their performance is not good enough, and requires they are offered a chance to improve. This 'offering a chance to improve' is usually done by putting employees on a 'performance improvement plan'. I believe many US states have similar procedures.

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#42

“worker had been present in the office being observed by management” And yet there are people who prefer working on site and “being observed by management”.

You might be surprised to know that there are workplaces where you don't get "observed by management" which is why people love going there on site.

Or that there are jobs where you don't have the choice of WFH so you have to show up to the office whether you like it or not if you want to afford food and rent.

Or lack of silence, space, amenities at home, or the multiple other reasons why some people to go to the office.

Why be judgemental about it? Let people do what they want and you do what you want.

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#43

>there was no urgent reason given to justify the immediate dismissal given.” He alleged that the termination was disproportionate Damn sweet. I wish we had such great employee protection laws in Austria, where the company/employer can terminate your employment relationship without any reason at all. >Less than a week after the plaintiff was fired, the Rijswijk branch of Chetu Inc. was deregistered from the Chamber of…

>>So the company knew they were in the wrong for firing him and immediately shut down their Dutch operations to avoid the lawsuit.

Or he was their only Dutch employee so there was no point in keeping their Dutch entity open.

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#44

>there was no urgent reason given to justify the immediate dismissal given.” He alleged that the termination was disproportionate Damn sweet. I wish we had such great employee protection laws in Austria, where the company/employer can terminate your employment relationship without any reason at all. >Less than a week after the plaintiff was fired, the Rijswijk branch of Chetu Inc. was deregistered from the Chamber of…

In the UK most people don't know that for the first 2 years of employment you can be let go for any reason(as long as it's legal) or no reason at all. Only after 2 years various employee protections kick in.

However there about 60 reasons that a dismissed employee can claim that it was automatically unfair to fire them, regardless of length of tenure.

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#45
post #4

> Less than a week after the plaintiff was fired, the Rijswijk branch of Chetu Inc. was deregistered from the Chamber of Commerce and shut down on 2 September, records show. So, it's a fair assumption that no organisation in the Netherlands is going to pay out as a result of this. What are the chances of the employee being able to enforce this judgment in a Florida court?

Cross border collections are a thing between western nations. After all, US courts want to collect damages from EU countries as well.

It takes time and usually isn't worth for small amounts... But for 75k someone will take time.

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#46
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

lawful just means the order itself wasn't illegal. It doesn't mean that it's "enforcing the law" If I tell you to go buy 10 apples, refusing would be insubordination because it's legal to buy apples. If I tell you to go steal 10 apples, refusing would not be insubordination because it's legal to buy apples. Until the court ruled against them, the view of the firm would have been it was legal to require someone to hav…

No. It would only be lawful if you were legally entitled to require him to buy apples.

as it's only insubordination if they were entitled to require him to buy apples. if i tell my friend or my brother to buy apples, and he says no, then that's not insubordination

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#47
post #41
post #2

"insubordination" wtf, was this a job or a prison camp?

As others said, the dutch term is probably different. Their (bad) legal argument was. He refused to follow work instructions, hence he did not perform his work as required, hence we can fire him "op staande voet" which is an on the spot firing that does not require a long process of attempting to improve employee performance. They needed a 'op staande voet' firing because the long process takes months. The justificat…

> I believe many US states have similar procedures.

Most US companies follow similar procedures because they are a sensible thing to do. But 49 out of 50 US states have "at will" employment which means that employers can fire any employee at any time for no reason at all.

Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not true that in Austria you can be terminated for any reason at all. There are protections in place. For example, in the regular case, i.e. 'no urgent reason' there is no such thing as an immediate dismissal, and this can be fought. Of course as always with the law ymmv - but there are many different ways in which your rights as a worker are protected. See this: https://www.usp.gv.at/mitarbeiter/beendigung-arbeitsve…

>Not true that in Austria you can be terminated for any reason at all. There are protections in place. Not true at all what you claim about Austria. There are zero protections in place for workers here unless you're over 50 or work at a place with a union (worker's council) that will fight for you. If you work for a small tech company you have no protections against unfair dismissal. Basically your boss can tell you…

I disagree. Austria’s labor protections are fine. If you make rules around dismissals stricter then you greatly harm the ability for a company to hire in the first place. The current rules give you plenty of protection as an employee that you can find a new place of work and not suffer financially.
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