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Europe: How to Become Poor Peasants Again

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Re: Europe: How to Become Poor Peasants Again

#41

Post by recursivedoubts »

teagoat wrote: post #32

To sum up the article, they claim: * Somebody (probably America) sabotaged the Nordstream 2 gas pipeline. * That's related to the war in Ukraine because? wars are always about resources? * The EU doesn't have any options to replace the gas that needs to come from Russia. * That's going to drive all EU citizens back to an agrarian lifestyle. * And also, the EU is too weak of an institution to defend its citizens. It r…

I'm sorry, why are you using the term conspiracy theory as a slur, here?

Blowing up an underwater international gas pipeline requires planning. Doing so in such a way that the public doesn't know about it in advance requires secrecy. The public not knowing the reason for blowing it up also requires ongoing secrecy.

Admittedly, I'm not the smartest person in the world, but this seems like a fairly cut-and-dried conspiracy to me.

Re: Europe: How to Become Poor Peasants Again

#42

Post by bitL »

a2tech wrote: post #26
gadders wrote: post #8

Is it me, or does he skirt over Europe not working increasing the supply of gas locally? I'm not saying they could replace Russia or the US, but they could almost certainly produce more (whether via fracking or whatever).

I also believe they could get all the gas they ever wanted by building a pipeline through Turkey to Turkmenistan. With this disaster of a war ongoing the Turkmen government might be willing to risk playing ball with Europe.

Isn't gas from that part of the world unfit for heating/production/food in the EU? I've read that basically Russia buys it all from those countries for their own specific industry/military purposes and then sends their own gas through their pipelines to export them as those countries' own gas.

Re: Europe: How to Become Poor Peasants Again

#43

Post by arrrg »

brabel wrote: post #38
TheMagicHorsey wrote: post #20

This is Russian/Tankie propoganda. Notice how the author subtly implies that America was the instigator in cutting Russian supplies to EU. Ignoring the fact that it was Putin who invaded Ukraine and Crimea, and started this whole sequence of events. It was Putin who decided to cut gas supplies, long before the pipeline was sabotaged. This is motivated article which speaks half-truths with the goal of casting events i…

> It was Putin who decided to cut gas supplies, long before the pipeline was sabotaged. That's factually incorrect. Germany said before the invasion, and followed through with it, that it would not allow NordStream2 to come into operation if Russia invaded. Listen: Putin did start the war and caused most problems that are causing Europe's energy prices to skyrocket... but how can we just forget the order of event so…

Nordstream 2 is not needed to supply Germany with enough natural gas. It‘s not even open, was never open.

Russia decided to cut deliveries (long before February, even) until eventually cutting them completely. Germany‘s stated policy is to buy gas if Russia wants to deliver it.

Re: Europe: How to Become Poor Peasants Again

#44

Post by bitL »

weatherlite wrote: post #14
csdvrx wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, with inflation, war, various shortages, lack of power for the winter, I'm very trustful in human nature, but that may be a little too much for Europe.

They could always make a new deal with the Russians if they will face imminent famine and the collapse of industry (which I don't believe they are). All in all sounds like hyperbole to me. A harsh recession is very likely though. Seriously what is the theory here, they care about Ukraine so much they are willing to implode for it with no plan b? I find it hard to believe.

They can't, with blown up pipes they can't just start receiving gas they need. That gives credibility to this theory - if there are mass protests and new EU governments as a result, they can't go back anyway as there is no longer infrastructure for gas delivery anymore. It really looks like some group wants EU all in, so we should be prepared for the worst possible outcome (WW3, some life remaining on the planet) if that's even possible.

Re: Europe: How to Become Poor Peasants Again

#45

Post by a2tech »

bitL wrote: post #42
a2tech wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also believe they could get all the gas they ever wanted by building a pipeline through Turkey to Turkmenistan. With this disaster of a war ongoing the Turkmen government might be willing to risk playing ball with Europe.

Isn't gas from that part of the world unfit for heating/production/food in the EU? I've read that basically Russia buys it all from those countries for their own specific industry/military purposes and then sends their own gas through their pipelines to export them as those countries' own gas.

No, Russia buys it for a song (since they're the only customer) and uses it domestically and possibly sells it along to Europe. I've certainly never heard of the Turkmen gas being unusable for regular purposes. There's a small pipeline to Afghanistan that supplies the border regions (when its running).

Re: Europe: How to Become Poor Peasants Again

#46

Post by simion314 »

roody15 wrote: post #9

Good Article. No question the events in Ukraine coincide with Nord Streak 2 about to go online. The amount of war time propaganda on the Ukraine conflict has hit overdrive status and I would expect this article to “disappear” quickly. There is little room to discuss the larger geopolitic situation. Instead a simplified narrative of “Putin is an evil dictator invading a peaceful democracy and must be stopped at all co…

So your intelligent theory is that Putin is smart but USA outsmarted him and EU ? Or US and Putin are both controlled by Illuminati and the plan was to???

We in East Europe we knew all along that we need to get in NATO ASAP because Russia is actual evil and would not esitate to exterminate us just to take our land and resources, so fuck your Trumpan-Illuminati theories, the reality is in your face and you refuse to see it, Putin and Russia are evil, they will not hesitate to doe evil , US is not perfect but is not some super genius state where they played Putin as a stupid puppet all along.

Maybe we easter European are wrong, but for now we will curse Putin and Russia for all the shit is happening

Re: Europe: How to Become Poor Peasants Again

#47

Post by weatherlite »

nradov wrote: post #24
weatherlite wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could always make a new deal with the Russians if they will face imminent famine and the collapse of industry (which I don't believe they are). All in all sounds like hyperbole to me. A harsh recession is very likely though. Seriously what is the theory here, they care about Ukraine so much they are willing to implode for it with no plan b? I find it hard to believe.

It's not that the other Europeans particularly care about Ukraine. They remember what happened last time they tried to appease an aggressive, expansionist dictator. If Ukraine is allowed to fall then next it will be Moldova, Lithuania, Poland, and so on. Better to take the pain now while the problem is still manageable rather than letting the situation spiral out of control.

I generally agree but I go back to the pessimistic article that (humorously?) predicts Europeans will go back to living conditions from 200 years ago. I don't think rational European leaders will let that happen. It could be that they completely lost their minds (there are signs...) but I give them some more credit for now. Even the Ukranians themselves probably have their limits on how much they care about Donbas and Crimea.

Re: Europe: How to Become Poor Peasants Again

#48

Post by weatherlite »

bitL wrote: post #44
weatherlite wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could always make a new deal with the Russians if they will face imminent famine and the collapse of industry (which I don't believe they are). All in all sounds like hyperbole to me. A harsh recession is very likely though. Seriously what is the theory here, they care about Ukraine so much they are willing to implode for it with no plan b? I find it hard to believe.

They can't, with blown up pipes they can't just start receiving gas they need. That gives credibility to this theory - if there are mass protests and new EU governments as a result, they can't go back anyway as there is no longer infrastructure for gas delivery anymore. It really looks like some group wants EU all in, so we should be prepared for the worst possible outcome (WW3, some life remaining on the planet) if…

> They can't, with blown up pipes they can't just start receiving gas they need.

Pipes can be reconstructed, peace deals can be made and shut down gas fields can be reopened (looking at you Groningen).

> It really looks like some group wants EU all in, so we should be prepared for the worst possible outcome (WW3, some life remaining on the planet) if that's even possible.

Well if that happens it happens - what's your idea of preparing? To me a quick death sounds pretty good in such a case.

Re: Europe: How to Become Poor Peasants Again

#49

Post by bitL »

weatherlite wrote: post #48
bitL wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can't, with blown up pipes they can't just start receiving gas they need. That gives credibility to this theory - if there are mass protests and new EU governments as a result, they can't go back anyway as there is no longer infrastructure for gas delivery anymore. It really looks like some group wants EU all in, so we should be prepared for the worst possible outcome (WW3, some life remaining on the planet) if…

> They can't, with blown up pipes they can't just start receiving gas they need. Pipes can be reconstructed, peace deals can be made and shut down gas fields can be reopened (looking at you Groningen). > It really looks like some group wants EU all in, so we should be prepared for the worst possible outcome (WW3, some life remaining on the planet) if that's even possible. Well if that happens it happens - what's your…

Pipes can't be reconstructed quickly and can be blown up again later.

My guess southern hemisphere might have some chance of survival if SHTF so that's where I will be heading. Most people will die gruesome prolonged deaths from starvation, broken bones or radiation, only a fraction will be vaporized instantly.

Re: Europe: How to Become Poor Peasants Again

#50

Post by weatherlite »

TheLoafOfBread wrote: post #31
weatherlite wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could always make a new deal with the Russians if they will face imminent famine and the collapse of industry (which I don't believe they are). All in all sounds like hyperbole to me. A harsh recession is very likely though. Seriously what is the theory here, they care about Ukraine so much they are willing to implode for it with no plan b? I find it hard to believe.

Last time it was Germany. - It militarized Rhineland, nothing happened - It got Luftwaffe operational again, nothing happened - It annexed Austria, nothing happened - It was given Sudetenland, it was even encouraged by allies - It annexed rest of Czechoslovakia, nothing happened. - It started war with Poland, Allies declared war and then nothing happened. - Only when Germany started to conquer Norway, Allies have fin…

There are parallels but also a whole bunch of differences between Nazi Germany and Russia.
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