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Baker's Math (2009)

thefreshloaf.com

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Re: Baker's Math (2009)

#41

Post by foobarian »

SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #36
nsb1 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but what you're saying is essentially "I don't need the recipe anymore - I can do this by feel", which is awesome, but who then is the recipe for except people who are trying to learn? Maybe throw us a bone :)

> Yeah, but what you're saying is essentially "I don't need the recipe anymore - I can do this by feel" I'm really not. I don't do it "by feel", I measure everything in grams, including water. I hate recipes in "cups" since a cup of flour or salt is not a fixed quantity - it depends on grain size, how hard you pack it down, the weather etc. But 10g salt is a fixed amount. I'm just saying that "500g flour, 60% hydrati…

If ambient humidity can affect moisture content of flour, then you have more unknowns than constraints and hydration % is not enough. Doing it by feel would seem to be required to get an end-to-end result.

Re: Baker's Math (2009)

#42

Post by MichaelCollins »

travisjungroth wrote: post #40
temporalparts wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was a response to an old law where bakers were accused of "cheating" customers by overpricing undersized loaves or intentionally creating giant air pockets in their bread to minimize the amount of converted flour the customer would be getting. one such source: https://www.britannica.com/story/why-is-a-bakers-dozen-13

That article doesn’t have any sources and I’m hesitant to take it as a primary source. A blog isn’t an encyclopedia, even with the same name. Also doesn’t pass some cursory thinking. If the law is about loaves being too light or small, how does giving out an extra loaf to people who buy 12 help? Who is even buying 12 loaves of bread when restaurants are rare and refrigeration non-existent? Armies, but then they’re bu…

> If the law is about loaves being too light or small, how does giving out an extra loaf to people who buy 12 help?

If the baker gives you 13 and calls it 12, that makes it harder for a greedy baker narrative to stick. It doesn't have to be logical, it's about managing impressions.

> Who is even buying 12 loaves of bread when restaurants are rare and refrigeration non-existent?

The average family used to be the size of a small army. 12 loafs of bread could be eaten in 1 or 2 days if you've got 12 hungry kids and bread is a major component of their diet.

Re: Baker's Math (2009)

#43

Post by rascul »

travisjungroth wrote: post #40
temporalparts wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was a response to an old law where bakers were accused of "cheating" customers by overpricing undersized loaves or intentionally creating giant air pockets in their bread to minimize the amount of converted flour the customer would be getting. one such source: https://www.britannica.com/story/why-is-a-bakers-dozen-13

That article doesn’t have any sources and I’m hesitant to take it as a primary source. A blog isn’t an encyclopedia, even with the same name. Also doesn’t pass some cursory thinking. If the law is about loaves being too light or small, how does giving out an extra loaf to people who buy 12 help? Who is even buying 12 loaves of bread when restaurants are rare and refrigeration non-existent? Armies, but then they’re bu…

Maybe this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assize_of_Bread_and_Ale

Re: Baker's Math (2009)

#44

Post by crdrost »

nsb1 wrote: post #29
SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You get used to it. You do. The single most important factor is "what does the dough feel like - how stiff and hard, or how loose and wet?" The water % captures this in 1 number. e.g. A 60% hydration pizza dough is much stiffer than a 80% hydration focaccia dough. Just by seeing that one number, I get an idea of how the dough is going to be to work with.

Yeah, but what you're saying is essentially "I don't need the recipe anymore - I can do this by feel", which is awesome, but who then is the recipe for except people who are trying to learn? Maybe throw us a bone :)

He/she is saying something slightly different, not “I like that I can do this by feel without percentages” but rather “I like how, by a quick glance at this percentage, I know something about how that will feel in the bowl.”

60% hydration: firmer, like Play-Doh without the crumbling

70% hydration: softer and maybe a little sticky

80% hydration: super sticky, still kneadable

Really high hydration requires a lot more care, both to stop it from getting everywhere and to get it kneaded enough that it actually rises (if that is even desired)

Re: Baker's Math (2009)

#45

Post by travisjungroth »

jameshart wrote: post #27
SnowHill9902 wrote: post #24

It’s called abuse of notation as it’s useful in practice but not strictly a percentage. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abuse_of_notation

What’s the abuse here? This seems like ‘math’ to me.

Abuse of notation is incredibly common in mathematics, there’s no conflict there.

The abuse would be if you think that percentages should always refer to portions of the whole. Not sure that’s correct, though.

Re: Baker's Math (2009)

#46

Post by sentrysapper »

jameshart wrote: post #27
SnowHill9902 wrote: post #24

It’s called abuse of notation as it’s useful in practice but not strictly a percentage. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abuse_of_notation

What’s the abuse here? This seems like ‘math’ to me.

As in it goes against the designed usage (where total is 100%), but it still works.

The total ingredients being 170% can be found confusing initially. I'm glad the author provided more context and the example of a 500g flour recipe.

Re: Baker's Math (2009)

#47

Post by bombcar »

travisjungroth wrote: post #40
temporalparts wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was a response to an old law where bakers were accused of "cheating" customers by overpricing undersized loaves or intentionally creating giant air pockets in their bread to minimize the amount of converted flour the customer would be getting. one such source: https://www.britannica.com/story/why-is-a-bakers-dozen-13

That article doesn’t have any sources and I’m hesitant to take it as a primary source. A blog isn’t an encyclopedia, even with the same name. Also doesn’t pass some cursory thinking. If the law is about loaves being too light or small, how does giving out an extra loaf to people who buy 12 help? Who is even buying 12 loaves of bread when restaurants are rare and refrigeration non-existent? Armies, but then they’re bu…

Loaves weren’t necessarily the same size as we have now. And smaller pastries have always existed.

I suspect part of it was make 13 so if one gets messed up you still have 12 - and usually you don’t lose one so an extra is available.

Kind of like how Denny’s started giving you the thing they mixed the milkshake in along with the shake.

Re: Baker's Math (2009)

#48

Post by SideburnsOfDoom »

foobarian wrote: post #41
SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yeah, but what you're saying is essentially "I don't need the recipe anymore - I can do this by feel" I'm really not. I don't do it "by feel", I measure everything in grams, including water. I hate recipes in "cups" since a cup of flour or salt is not a fixed quantity - it depends on grain size, how hard you pack it down, the weather etc. But 10g salt is a fixed amount. I'm just saying that "500g flour, 60% hydrati…

If ambient humidity can affect moisture content of flour, then you have more unknowns than constraints and hydration % is not enough. Doing it by feel would seem to be required to get an end-to-end result.

Yes, though that isn't such a big deal for me, as I'm not in a desert or a rainforest, the ambient humidity here is middling and doesn't vary so much. Minor changes are not very important. Flour gets stored in sealed containers, and compensations for the changes during baking are minor. e.g. the cloth over the dough is moistened during summer. Ambient humidity maybe matters like a 1-2% difference here, not a 10% difference.

I do notice seasonal changes, but that's IMHO more due to changes in ambient room temperature than anything else.

Also, I would say that measuring in grams allows you to notice and more accurately quantify that "it's dryer than usual today for the same quantities - must be due to the ambient conditions that require an adjustment".

Re: Baker's Math (2009)

#49

Post by kzrdude »

nsb1 wrote: post #29
SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You get used to it. You do. The single most important factor is "what does the dough feel like - how stiff and hard, or how loose and wet?" The water % captures this in 1 number. e.g. A 60% hydration pizza dough is much stiffer than a 80% hydration focaccia dough. Just by seeing that one number, I get an idea of how the dough is going to be to work with.

Yeah, but what you're saying is essentially "I don't need the recipe anymore - I can do this by feel", which is awesome, but who then is the recipe for except people who are trying to learn? Maybe throw us a bone :)

The recipe is for yourself so you can remember how to do the same nice thing again.

Re: Baker's Math (2009)

#50

Post by mcaravey »

Commercial baker here. One place where this kind of math gets really weird is when the recipe uses multiple kinds of flours. We make a loaf that uses three kinds of flour, so this means a recipe will have flour percentages that are less than 100%, but that sum to 100% so the hydration percentage works.

For example, the recipe might say: Bread Flour 80%, Whole Wheat Flour 15%, and Rye Flour 5%. Personally I prefer just treating all ingredients as relative weights, and only convert to bakers math if needed. That is in large part because I wrote the software that is used on the production floor which spits out ingredient weights in grams, and no bakers math needed. It also keeps it simple for the employees, so they don’t have to learn how these ratios work.

I’ll also mention that the absolute best book on bread ever is the Modernist Bread set [0]. It’s pricey, but there are extremely well explained reasons behind certain methods, and debunking a lot of long held beliefs such as the efficacy of the autolyse.

[0] https://modernistcuisine.com/books/modernist-bread/

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