Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages • Hacker News Board

Re: Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

#41

Post by bombcar » Sun, Sep 25, 2022, 1:53 PM UTC

Someone wrote: post #27

bombcar wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if it is cost effective going forward to install two meters and panels on every house with one being “essential” and the other being “intermittent” so the power company has the option of blacking out the intermittent boxes only. I’d rather have all my computers, lights, etc shut down than my whole house.

Firstly, how would you keep consumers honest about what’s essential? Secondly, I think “essential” will depend on the duration of the blackout. For a blackout of a few hours, keeping WiFi running so that work from home can continue probably is more essential than heating a water boiler. If the blackout takes a few days, that may change.

There will always be some cheaters and “lifehack - do this dangerous wiring and keep the wifi on” but in general people leave things alone.

We already have interconnect devices for A/C and water heating and car charging in some locations.

Re: Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

#42

Post by bombcar » Sun, Sep 25, 2022, 1:54 PM UTC

bitschubser_ wrote: post #40

bombcar wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if it is cost effective going forward to install two meters and panels on every house with one being “essential” and the other being “intermittent” so the power company has the option of blacking out the intermittent boxes only. I’d rather have all my computers, lights, etc shut down than my whole house.

isn't it much "easier" to implement some kind of progressive price on energy? first 1000kw/h are "cheaper" than market (per person in household), next 500kw/h double the price, next 500kw/h doubles again etc... For things like heatpumps you usually have an extra meter with special day/night tarifs (in germany), the rest is metered as general consumption. I always wonder through how much energy my peers burn, we have…

Progressive pricing exists for commercial users but in general has been too complicated for home users.

Re: Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

#43

Post by trasz » Sun, Sep 25, 2022, 1:59 PM UTC

It’s sad when you look at China building 20 new reactors at the moment and then comparing to what we have in EU.

Re: Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

#44

Post by libertine » Sun, Sep 25, 2022, 1:59 PM UTC

roenxi wrote: post #4

This is exactly the wrong moment to be deciding policy by tweetstorm. These issues require an engineering report to digest, not soundbites. This person may not intend to produce soundbites, but if it makes a good Twitter chain it is a string of sound bites. I can't distinguish this thread from one of those crazy-lists people sometimes put together. It is too disjointed and lacks citations or developed thoughts.

Or at least we have to assume that the people that managed to make the feat that he boasts about, know what they are doing:

>The European electricity grid is a modern miracle. It is the largest synchronous electrical grid (by connected power) in the world. It interconnects 520 million end-customers in 32 countries, including non-European Union members such as Morocco or Turkey.

But then he makes a sharp turn to:

>Here is the thing. The grid builds on physics, not ideology.(...)

...So is the grid a feat of engineering, or ideology? Haven't the decision makers being in contact with the ones who built and maintain this "modern miracle"? Or was this modern miracle the product of pure luck?

To end up on:

>What am I trying to explain?

>Europe will NOT deliver on its climate targets.

>The energy transition is an order of mangnitude more complex than laws or ideology allow for. Accept.

Ok.

Re: Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

#45

Post by bitschubser_ » Sun, Sep 25, 2022, 1:59 PM UTC

bombcar wrote: post #42

bitschubser_ wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

isn't it much "easier" to implement some kind of progressive price on energy? first 1000kw/h are "cheaper" than market (per person in household), next 500kw/h double the price, next 500kw/h doubles again etc... For things like heatpumps you usually have an extra meter with special day/night tarifs (in germany), the rest is metered as general consumption. I always wonder through how much energy my peers burn, we have…

Progressive pricing exists for commercial users but in general has been too complicated for home users.

just out of curiosity because I have no clue :D why is it regarded as complicated? For waste you already have a basic tarif + extra for every member in the household, and the "progression" is that you have to buy really expensive "waste bags" if you produce more waste

Re: Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

#46

Post by hef19898 » Sun, Sep 25, 2022, 2:01 PM UTC

matjet wrote: post #32

hef19898 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Us Europeans can still look at Texas, if we want to know how it is properly done, can't we?

Texas has the same pattern as Europe; higher percentages of solar and wind, resulting in an overdependence on gas.

And the latter part is wrong: France is mostly nuckear, Germany to a huge extent coal, gas has close to no significance when it comes to electricity in Germany. Norway is hydro, as is Austria.

And the share of renewables in Texas was negligible when the frid broke down, that was due to failing gas power plants because of low temperatures.

Re: Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

#47

Post by astra90 » Sun, Sep 25, 2022, 2:03 PM UTC

pennaMan wrote: post #15

bpodgursky wrote: post #3

Belgium just shut down a functional nuclear reactor: https://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/Belgium-T...

Just..... Why? This is so balatanly stupid I can't find my words..

In 2003, the Belgian government decided to stop producing nuclear energy, mostly driven by the Green party. They introduced a law that contained a schedule to shut down a number of nuclear power plants in the country.

In 2015 the government already extended the lifespan of 2 nuclear power plants. However, the power plant that was just shut down (Doel 3) did not get an extension of lifespan and so it has been shut down according to the initial law introduced in 2003.

It's an understatement to say it's unfortunate that it has been shut during an energy crisis.

Re: Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

#48

Post by trebligdivad » Sun, Sep 25, 2022, 2:03 PM UTC

sschueller wrote: post #8

Here is what Switzerland is doing at the moment to prevent the worst case which would be rolling black outs. They are planning for the worst case so they don't get caught with their pants down. This includes: - Currently trying to fill as many reservoirs as possible - Securing gas in foreign reservoirs. - Plan for emergency gas plants that can be operational by January/February, the time Switzerland has the least ele…

The 'Securing gas in foreign reservoirs' is going to get messy for everyone, all the countries are doing this, but when everyone is short of it (if there's a very cold winter with low wind) - what's going to happen? Some of those 'secure gas' isn't going to deliver.

Re: Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

#49

Post by guidethought » Sun, Sep 25, 2022, 2:03 PM UTC

roenxi wrote: post #4

This is exactly the wrong moment to be deciding policy by tweetstorm. These issues require an engineering report to digest, not soundbites. This person may not intend to produce soundbites, but if it makes a good Twitter chain it is a string of sound bites. I can't distinguish this thread from one of those crazy-lists people sometimes put together. It is too disjointed and lacks citations or developed thoughts.

I read it as 'guided thinking', but won't sound offending you. So please keep your mind eye spinning for a moment about this (missquoted): 'First, who keep you consumers honest about what’s essential?'

This may be another 'sound-bite', you named it so, but (another OT) i was asking myself, the 100% loss at the moscow-stock-exchange (on friday!?) wich about i read yesterday, where did the losses went... and maybe with another (there was a 'unuseful'-swinging within what you wrote) 'sound-bit' you may become a larger view (perception ? perspective...word-list...full-text...what ever, feel free to name it by yourself... and good luck to estimate what may be in your intention, and what...^^), which is commanded right for your (opened) eyes... (-:

hu well now for my own, i thought that was a bit 'offending' never mind...

Re: Europe is in danger of rolling electricity shortages

#50

Post by zarriak » Sun, Sep 25, 2022, 2:03 PM UTC

hef19898 wrote: post #20

kurupt213 wrote: post #11

It’s hard to be sympathetic when this situation was so obvious and preventable. This is what short term greed and irresponsible governance looks like.

Us Europeans can still look at Texas, if we want to know how it is properly done, can't we?

Texas is the opposite of this situation because they purposely didn’t connect their grid to anyone else. The US equivalent for mismanagement would be the Colorado River.

The real problem with this situation is we are at a point at which deploying fixes to these problems take so long that even discussing it feels useless.