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How sustainable are fake meats?

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Re: How sustainable are fake meats?

#41

Post by myshpa »

prepend wrote: post #31
DangitBobby wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a vegetarian, having fake meat options is really great. Sometimes you just want a burger, or you need something that can be cooked on a grill at a social gathering. Just the fact that I can get fast food that isn't Taco Bell when I want to is a big deal.

As a former vegetarian, I loved boca burgers as they were cheap and high in proteins and minimally processed. The new fake meats aren’t that great over existing meat substitutes and I’m frustrated that their price is so high and has not been coming down over the years available. I don’t see these being viable as they cost more than beef.

Beef is heavily subsidized. Give it time.

Re: How sustainable are fake meats?

#42

Post by myshpa »

WheelsAtLarge wrote: post #15
blackqueeriroh wrote: post #10

Did any of you read the article? Fake meats are actually much more sustainable that real meats

Yes, they are more sustainable but they are in no way replacements. I've had a few but I wouldn't make it a habit to replace meat with it. But I would surely replace one of my meals with 100% vegetables if it was easy to get and tasty. One that comes to mind is a bean and rice burrito with salsa. It's delicious. That's the type of replacements that should be pushed, not fake meats. The idea that fake meat is so much…

> Yes, they are more sustainable but they are in no way replacements.

Yes, they are (source: am vegan).

> a bean and rice burrito with salsa. It's delicious. That's the type of replacements that should be pushed, not fake meats

If you're not vegan, please don't pretend you know what you're pushing for. Beans are superb, but a little variety won't harm anyone. If you'd eat burgers all your life, and then stop eating meat for the animals/health/earth, you might crave a burger now and then. Then you'd welcome all new "franken-meats" in the supermarket/burger joint.

Making a plant based meat that's not ultraprocessed is in fact a very simple thing to do. DIY plant-based meat may have minimum ingredients (protein, water & vegie-stock) and costs a fraction of the store-bought stuff.

And please stop pretending that omnivores don't eat processed crap, because they do.

Meat/dairy is full of harmful things (pesticides, herbicides, bacteria/toxins, antibiotics, all animals are scared/stressed for hours/days before slaughtering ...). If you're eating it, you're not eating healthier diet.

Re: How sustainable are fake meats?

#43

Post by myshpa »

orionblastar wrote: post #34
_xerces_ wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While almond is better, the article does suggest that almonds themselves are not the best when it comes to water usage.

Then why am I being downvoted when I post that?

> The same with the plant burgers take more water to make than meat.

Maybe this. It's a fallacy.

Re: How sustainable are fake meats?

#44

Post by herbst »

myshpa wrote: post #40
herbst wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

30% or more of Switzerland is not useable for any kind of farming other than cattle. Fertilizers in the Alps are heavily discouraged. Less than 5% of the food for cows is imported. The far majority is produced trough the same grass the herds spent their time on. And to round this up there is a relatively okish label jungle so you can know exactly which kind of farming you support. Just because beef isn't the solution…

We would not need cca 75% of our agricultural lands if stopped overindulging in meat/dairy. Those 30% you're talking about is not the only land your cattle herds need ... there is also corn/seeds/alfaalfa etc. produced somewhere. Beef needs 120x more land than plant-based foods for the same amount of calories. Western countries are a model for developing countries. If we base our diets on meat/dairy, they will want t…

There is no point in not using the land tho. Especially as cows even play a role in keeping the Alps tourist friendly. The meat I personally buy doesn't contain any crops grown elsewhere. It's 100% from the land around here, there is no need for power crops in cow food if the grass has actual biodiversity.

I totally agree that this isn't sustainable on a bigger scale. I also realize that some people can't afford this kind of meat and the 'dirty' market is always way bigger.

But it's not about a global solution. It's about finding a sustainable way of living where you are.

Re: How sustainable are fake meats?

#45

Post by Beltalowda »

tuatoru wrote: post #27
blackqueeriroh wrote: post #10

Did any of you read the article? Fake meats are actually much more sustainable that real meats

There are a few little details elided. Pastoral lands are pastoral, and not arable, usually because they are not suitable for arable cropping. There is either too little rainfall, or the wrong kind/timing of rainfall, or the soils are wrong. For rainfall reasons forests are out too. Articles that go on about how ${large_number} percent of the world's non-desert, non-mountain, non-arctic land is used for grazing anima…

> Pastoral lands are pastoral, and not arable, usually because they are not suitable for arable cropping.

There is plenty of livestock raised on arable land though. The exact number of "arable land used to raise livestock" will probably differ widely per region; pretty much all of the Netherlands is arable as one extreme example. Many of the hills in, say, Ireland or Britain where sheep are grazing are not.

More importantly however, as you mentioned you need a multitude of arable land for any pastoral land since your livestock has to eat. You don't need this, but no way we can raise enough livestock to meet demand on self-sustainable pastoral lands, and it's more expensive too so there's that.

I don't think it's not mentioned because it's "inconvenient", but because it's a red herring and not really very important.

Re: How sustainable are fake meats?

#46

Post by myshpa »

herbst wrote: post #44
myshpa wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We would not need cca 75% of our agricultural lands if stopped overindulging in meat/dairy. Those 30% you're talking about is not the only land your cattle herds need ... there is also corn/seeds/alfaalfa etc. produced somewhere. Beef needs 120x more land than plant-based foods for the same amount of calories. Western countries are a model for developing countries. If we base our diets on meat/dairy, they will want t…

There is no point in not using the land tho. Especially as cows even play a role in keeping the Alps tourist friendly. The meat I personally buy doesn't contain any crops grown elsewhere. It's 100% from the land around here, there is no need for power crops in cow food if the grass has actual biodiversity. I totally agree that this isn't sustainable on a bigger scale. I also realize that some people can't afford this…

> There is no point in not using the land tho.

Reforest it. The tourists will come, and maybe your glaciers will stop melting. Then even skiers may keep coming.

> Especially as cows even play a role in keeping the Alps tourist friendly.

Yes, violet milka cows. We've all seen them. They are the ones which give milk in perpetuity without being forcibly raped every year with their young taken away the first day they're born, milked to their death in five short years (instead of 20+ it would be otherwise), and then sent to the slaughtehouse, because they can't even walk. Serene.

> I also realize that some people can't afford this kind of meat

Sure ... but I don't want to subsidize your food preferences. Without subsidies only the top 0.1% would be able to purchase grass-fed beef. Strangely enough, I'm all for that :)

Re: How sustainable are fake meats?

#47

Post by herbst »

myshpa wrote: post #46
herbst wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no point in not using the land tho. Especially as cows even play a role in keeping the Alps tourist friendly. The meat I personally buy doesn't contain any crops grown elsewhere. It's 100% from the land around here, there is no need for power crops in cow food if the grass has actual biodiversity. I totally agree that this isn't sustainable on a bigger scale. I also realize that some people can't afford this…

> There is no point in not using the land tho. Reforest it. The tourists will come, and maybe your glaciers will stop melting. Then even skiers may keep coming. > Especially as cows even play a role in keeping the Alps tourist friendly. Yes, violet milka cows. We've all seen them. They are the ones which give milk in perpetuity without being forcibly raped every year with their young taken away the first day they're…

> Strangely enough, I'm all for that :)

At least this is where we can agree on. In a money based society like ours letting people pay the real price for the minimal quality that could be considered animal friendly would solve a lot of our diet problems

Re: How sustainable are fake meats?

#48

Post by myshpa »

herbst wrote: post #47
myshpa wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no point in not using the land tho. Reforest it. The tourists will come, and maybe your glaciers will stop melting. Then even skiers may keep coming. > Especially as cows even play a role in keeping the Alps tourist friendly. Yes, violet milka cows. We've all seen them. They are the ones which give milk in perpetuity without being forcibly raped every year with their young taken away the first day they're…

> Strangely enough, I'm all for that :) At least this is where we can agree on. In a money based society like ours letting people pay the real price for the minimal quality that could be considered animal friendly would solve a lot of our diet problems

I think that "animal friendly meat" is an oxymoron, but thank you for your opinion. Have a nice day.

Re: How sustainable are fake meats?

#49

Post by DangitBobby »

prepend wrote: post #31
DangitBobby wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a vegetarian, having fake meat options is really great. Sometimes you just want a burger, or you need something that can be cooked on a grill at a social gathering. Just the fact that I can get fast food that isn't Taco Bell when I want to is a big deal.

As a former vegetarian, I loved boca burgers as they were cheap and high in proteins and minimally processed. The new fake meats aren’t that great over existing meat substitutes and I’m frustrated that their price is so high and has not been coming down over the years available. I don’t see these being viable as they cost more than beef.

At least at Burger King, Impossible Whoppers are only like $1 more. Most restaraunts, yeah they are the most expensive option by a couple of dollars. Very frustrating. Still good to have the option though, because the alternative is often a crappy house salad or sides.

Re: How sustainable are fake meats?

#50

Post by wyre »

prepend wrote: post #32
wyre wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes unprocessed vegetables are more sustainable than fake meat. The problem is that we as a society need to reduce the amount of meat that we eat. Fake meat is a drop-in replacement and is more sustainable. Your argument isn’t helping anything except for the meat industry.

It’s not a drop in replacement. It doesn’t taste like meat and it’s expensive. Everyone I know has tried it and no one has replaced meat in their diet. I know some vegetarians who use them. If we had a drop in, then I agree with you. But fake meats aren’t going to do it. I think it’s better to have more realistic health campaigns and subsidies. I suspect this is just these new fake meat startups spending PR to get su…

I mean it’s a drop in replacement in the way that an impossible burger easily replaces a beef patty, not that it’s a 1:1 replacement.

I would love better health campaigns and subsidies as well but no one wants be told to not eat meat or to lose the subsidies that make their meat cheap so it’s not going to happen.

Do you think that fake meat companies shouldn’t get subsidies?

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